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Class Balance Philosophies by Jonathan Sharp


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#1 News

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:46 AM

Missed this when Jonathan first posted it, still an interesting read:


Class balance philosophies
We normally try to employ metered and controlled balance changes with each pass, rather than huge reductions or improvements to classes. We want to get all classes on the same playing field, and we want to avoid “whack-a-mole” style balance. HUGH increases and HUGE decreases lead to meta instability, and thusly, we try to make multiple small tweaks rather than putting in massive changes that we have to later correct.
When designing and balancing the classes, we try to make sure that class roles and identities stay intact. So, in doing so, we make sure that there are rules and boundaries outlining the capabilities and weaknesses of each class.
  • Warrior
    • We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.
  • Guardian
    • The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.
  • Ranger
    • The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.
  • Engineer
    • The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.
  • Thief
    • Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.
  • Mesmer
    • Mesmers rely on illusions in order to accomplish their goals. They need illusions to accomplish some of their highest damage and control, and without the illusions, they become fairly fragile. They can deal with enemy boons better than most classes, but enemy conditions can often be a problem. They share some of the stealth and mobility that the Thief enjoys, but suffer from a low health pool if you get past all their tricks.
  • Ele
    • We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elemetnalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.
  • Necro
    • The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.
Going forward
  • Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.
  • AOE balance. We feel that in PvP some AOE builds are too strong for the opportunity cost, and we’ll be bringing those in line in the next few patches.
source: https://forum-en.gui...-14-2012/999247

#2 Thuley

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:48 AM

View PostNews, on 30 December 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

AOE balance. We feel that in PvP some AOE builds are too strong for the opportunity cost, and we’ll be bringing those in line in the next few patches.

Predicting that as unintended consequence Engineer Grenade builds will become meh.

#3 Circaetus

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

I only play my ranger in WvW for the longbow 5... if they nerf that, the only reason my ranger will travel to Eternal is the jump puzzle.
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#4 Liric

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:21 PM

They definitely need to work on the tank vs. spike, etc. mechanics, as well as funneling to specific types of builds. Not to mention the lack of balance between classes and their abilities. As a Warrior player I find it exceedingly annoying that Guardians can dish out comparable damage while also having "oh, and we can heal a billion HP and block attacks constantly and also buff all of our allies with a ton of stacked boons" as characteristics innate to the class at next to zero cost of anything else.

#5 Tawa

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostLiric Whitecloak, on 02 January 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

They definitely need to work on the tank vs. spike, etc. mechanics, as well as funneling to specific types of builds. Not to mention the lack of balance between classes and their abilities. As a Warrior player I find it exceedingly annoying that Guardians can dish out comparable damage while also having "oh, and we can heal a billion HP and block attacks constantly and also buff all of our allies with a ton of stacked boons" as characteristics innate to the class at next to zero cost of anything else.

*explodes in a shower of boons and HP* What are you talking about? Heh, guardians are meant to do that though and they look like they heal more HP than Warriors because of the smaller HP pool, +Healing, and every single one traits for Altruistic Healing.

Warriors are still my best friend because I love their Fury and Might boons. I'll give you boons and cure your conditions if you keep punching faces in and stacking Might.

Now on the other hand, Thieves are just embarrassing to talk about.

Posted ImageHubert Ozwell - 80 Thief Posted ImagePascál - 2 Elementalist Posted ImageKaj Bloodfury - 80 Warrior

Posted ImageBuixx - 80 Guardian


#6 Liric

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:21 PM

It would sit better with me if it didn't just basically make Guardians into Warriors with more defensive and healing options whenever they want. They shouldn't get all of that AND be able to have close to the same DPS.

Thieves, don't even get me started. I fought one tonight in WvW with my Ele and after about the fifth time they disappeared and ran a mile away after I'd nearly killed them so that they could reset the fight, we stared at each other for a bit and I just ran off to stop wasting my time. Their stealth mechanics seriously need attention if they can't do something about the culling.

#7 Tawa

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:21 PM

If an average joe guardian is getting close to the same DPS as a warrior, the warrior's clearly not doing enough damage if he's specced for DPS... Or the enemy the Guardian is fighting is on fire ( 10% more damage ), his endurance is charging ( 10% more damage ), and is fighting with a mace/greatsword/specter ( 5% damage ). That's at least 10 points in Zeal ( Pow ), 20 points in Valor ( Tough ) or Zeal if you're using Greatsword, and 25 in Honor ( Vit ). Sadly there's no 5% damage trait for Hammer time. :(

Edit- Forgot there were other 5% damage weapons in traits!

Posted ImageHubert Ozwell - 80 Thief Posted ImagePascál - 2 Elementalist Posted ImageKaj Bloodfury - 80 Warrior

Posted ImageBuixx - 80 Guardian


#8 Avis

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:30 AM

Is it bad that I laughed at this?
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#9 Stumpy

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:06 AM

View PostNews, on 30 December 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Going forward
  • Tank vs spike vs physical DPS vs condie DPS. We want to keep making balance changes that allow all classes to have various builds they can use. We don’t want tanks dominating the game, and we don’t want spike builds dominating. It’s healthy to have multiple types of builds in the meta, so we’ll be improving the balance to facilitate a healthy meta.

It's good they're recognizing this.  I want to use the sword on my warrior, dangit!  But with conditions being as easy to remove as they are, a bleed build for the sword just isn't practical.  But I have my doubts that they'll be able to change any of this with a few little balance updates.  It's probably going to take a massive game mechanic update for any of that to come true.

Now how about making racial abilities worth a crap?

#10 eithinanBP

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:41 PM

I was running a bleed build in WvW and in group combat it is almost laughable how many condition removers there are. The light fields and whirl/projectile finishers make any condition build almost pointless. Solo on higher tiers almost everyone swaps to a condition remover skill on their utility bar when they are not with the mass of people. Large scale group combat is where the different professions shine if they are used together.

#11 Stumpy

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous how easy conditions are shut down.  I used to run a shout/warhorn build in WvW, with the quick breathing trait and soldier runes, so I effectively shut down any conditions that popped up on any nearby allies.  One person removing most conditions on everyone nearby. And like you said, most smart people will equip a condition removal skill or two.    So ANet is going to have to change a lot of stuff if they intend on making condition DPS builds viable.  As usual, they talk a big game, and I'm hoping they're going to back it up.

#12 Liric

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

I'd forgotten about this thread, haha.

Mostly what I meant with the Guardian is that for one doing close to the same damage as a Warrior (since not everyone specs for the highest DPS they can manage), the Guardian will pretty much always have more defensive options. I mean, I get that this is what the class is about, but this forces the Warrior to basically always spec for close to his max DPS in order to have any sort of advantage; even then it comes at a very high cost to his or her defenses that a Guardian gearing in the same way would not experience due to their innate abilities which are present regardless (things like aegis, boatloads of healing while stacking boons, etc.). I get that their damage ceiling isn't quite as high, but it doesn't feel like Guardians are forced into such a thing as Glass Cannon even if they are trying.

I guess maybe what I'm getting at is that Warriors need better utility and/or sustained damage in order to balance better. Anet wants them to have trouble with conditions for some reason, but making them rely on allies to remove conditions doesn't fly all that well with how they've got the game presently, it just makes them blow at PvP compared to more defensively able classes. I love the direction they were going in with the shouts, banners, warhorn, and whatnot. It gives an added depth to the class beyond the typical "ME WARRIOR SMASH FACE". Much like how I'd enjoy seeing Thieves expanded beyond "I STAB U IN BACK NOW OR RUN AWAY". It's back to the balance between bunkers and spikers I guess.

About conditions...I do much of the same on my Ele, Stumpy. Ridiculous condition removal, especially on myself, although granted I am very much traited for that. Satisfying to see what I planned for work as intended, but I know that in WvW, at least, straight condition damage is really lacking.

#13 Tawa

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

Banners aren't Utility for Warriors? Well dang.

I want Sword/Sword theives that don't have any stealth abilities. They just stab you in the face and gut over and over like a warrior.

Posted ImageHubert Ozwell - 80 Thief Posted ImagePascál - 2 Elementalist Posted ImageKaj Bloodfury - 80 Warrior

Posted ImageBuixx - 80 Guardian


#14 Liric

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:04 PM

Oh, they are, but it seems like they need work or better mechanics I guess. I saw some cool ideas in this regard posted elsewhere but none of them have really been implemented.

Haha. I think the pistol and bow things are neat alternatives for Thieves, although when I see them in the field, they still mostly seem to employ exactly the same tactic every time. It doesn't feel very flexible.

#15 Tawa

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

Yeah, a buff to warbanners would be nice... I think anything else and warriors would have the problem of being a jack of way too many trades since you can do multiple things with a banner. Guardian's just have static 1 stack boon symbols, shouts, those neat fire fields, and... who the heck uses mediations?

Pistol and bow on thief... hwaaa... where to start with how meh they are? Okay, so bow can be pretty awesome on a thief if you use it right since it gives you crazy mobility and point blank AoE but Pistol... Oh god Pistol, it just... really sucks. The autoattack is super slow and the bleed on it's just embarrassing. Bodyshot's not even worth the energy to use it. Seriously. Don't use it. Unload's... okay, I guess if you're only doing damage to a single target. All pistol is good for is using it as an offhand so you have an instant interrupt.

The thieves you're always running into probably use the same build because everything else pretty much sucks! Sword/Pistol thief? Everyone can condition remove Blind and no one will stand still to be hit by Pistol Whip just like they won't stay still for Hundred Blades.

Posted ImageHubert Ozwell - 80 Thief Posted ImagePascál - 2 Elementalist Posted ImageKaj Bloodfury - 80 Warrior

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#16 Liric

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:43 PM

That's what I mean! Give 'em more options by buffing the alternatives. =)
One thing I love about Thieves is that it matters where you are in relation to your enemy when you hit them with an attack. I wish more classes had mechanics similar to this so it would encourage players to try to flank one another and reward you for being clever.

Also, something for condition damage I would very much like to see: Stop making multiple people applying it battle for the damage. Two condition builds in a dungeon shouldn't feel totally redundant to the point where one is basically doing next to nothing...

#17 Tawa

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

Thieves all around who used Pistols ( like me ) all held their breath for something in the December update but got nothing but a bigger chance for bullets to bounce and hit another target if you traited for it. :B I think thief moral is down because no one talks about them besides "nerf stealth!"

Yeahhh, that condition damage fighting is a bitch. I have no idea how thief's poison ranks vs other classes but Weakness/Vulnerability is pretty low. Bleed might be average for those who spam Fancy Jumping Spinning Air Dagger Flip since it hits multiple times.

Posted ImageHubert Ozwell - 80 Thief Posted ImagePascál - 2 Elementalist Posted ImageKaj Bloodfury - 80 Warrior

Posted ImageBuixx - 80 Guardian


#18 Liric

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

Balance is needed is all. Stealth (or preferably, culling) might need help, but it's got to be compensated for somehow I think. That pistol update was kinda lame in that regard. <_<

#19 Tawa

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

I bet folks are still gonna complain if they ever fix the culling issues.

But at least the super lame pistol update motivated me to make a guardian! Now he's my main.

Posted ImageHubert Ozwell - 80 Thief Posted ImagePascál - 2 Elementalist Posted ImageKaj Bloodfury - 80 Warrior

Posted ImageBuixx - 80 Guardian


#20 Drake Erif

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:44 PM

View PostTawa, on 05 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Thieves all around who used Pistols ( like me ) all held their breath for something in the December update but got nothing but a bigger chance for bullets to bounce and hit another target if you traited for it. :B I think thief moral is down because no one talks about them besides "nerf stealth!"

Yeahhh, that condition damage fighting is a bitch. I have no idea how thief's poison ranks vs other classes but Weakness/Vulnerability is pretty low. Bleed might be average for those who spam Fancy Jumping Spinning Air Dagger Flip since it hits multiple times.

Pistol got an extra 5% damage increase in one of the traits. It used to +5% now it's +10% :/

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