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Thief Pistol Dagger condition build


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#1 Cynical

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:42 PM

I wont give it some grand name or whatever like the reddit builds or forum builds thats stupid it is what it is.

This guy pretty much made the build popular in WvW for its ability to fight more than 1 opponent.



Build: http://www.gw2db.com...|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|


Goal: Bleed people to death <--- (yup that simple)

Your weapons are Pistol and Dagger

Secondary:  Dagger/Dagger or SB

Main form of attack is Vital shot and Sneak attack and cloak and dagger to stealth.

You don't use body shot because its a initiative waste.  Shadow strike is good but situational.

Gear:  Carrion (can be changed but I will expand on that later)

Trinkets all carrion, weapons carrion.

Runes: 2x Rune of the Krait 2x rune of the afflicted 2x rune of the centaur (45% bleed duration)

Sigil: 1 superior sigil of agony 10% bleed duration and 1 superior sigil of corruption



Traits: This is the part I like about the build

Its flexible

For Wild Bill style it is

20 points Deadly arts- venomous strength, quick venoms (20% condition duratoin)

30 points Shadow arts- blind on stealth, leechin venoms, regenerate health in stealth

20 points acrobatics- vigor on heal, pain response

Utilities: Signet of shadows, Devourer venom, Spider poison.


Ok now the variety:

You can run this all kinds of ways the Wild Bill style is just a good guideline.  You can run this 0/0/30/20/20 etc.

The main thing you want to keep in mind is bleed duration the sweet spot in my opinion is 75% duration then you can add some condition damage on top of that.

Condition duration > Condition damage when it comes to a condition like bleeds.

(A) Simple example is a bleed that does 100 damage that lasts for 7 seconds does 700 damage

( B) A bleed that does 110 damage and lasts for 4 seconds does 440 damage.

In order for B to beat example A at 4 sec duration you need 180 damage bleed (good luck getting that rofl)

I know the next thought is condi removal but with condition duration you have an easier uptime on bleed stacking than with shorter bleeds especially when you factor in things like dodging, healing etc.  

The impact of condition removal is reduced if you have longer duration.   It is much easier keeping a stack of 5 bleeds on someone during the course of a fight if your bleeds last longer than 5 seconds.

Vital shots attack rate is 1 second this is looking at worse case scenario if you can't land a Cloak and dagger for sneak attack which isn't always going to happen.

Wild bill style P/D is less forgiving you have no stun breaker, and no condition removal except for pain response (45 sec cd)  it is in my opinion the strongest of all the variations because of how fast you have access to venoms and weakness.  


Weaknesses: You wont beat a good bunker Ele or Bunker Guardian

You just dont do enough damage and they have easy access to condi removal.  Every other class should be doable in 1v1.  

The thing about this build also is that you really don't have a way to stop anyone if they are really mobile.  Fortunately this is WvW build and in WvW people see player and turn into bulls fighting a matador and don't try to run until its to late. You can distract a group of 5 easily (since people hate thieves)  can you get a kill in 1v5 maybe but its hard but you can troll pretty easily.  

This is my first time writing one of these I probably forgot something but if you have any questions feel free.  I love the build and it is my main setup for WvW.  Its not for everyone it pretty much is the thiefs version of a bunker though your not really tanking.  You can survive burst though you will have about 21k hp but its kind of like slow to kill compared to a typical D/D bs burst build.

I personally run 0/0/30/20/20 and sometimes switch to wild bill style.

Also I wanted to add is your effectiveness can be gauged by the attack stat.   What I mean by this is Your attack stat takes into consideration your power, weapon damage AND condition damage.  

Alot of people look at the attack stat and say OH YEA 3k attack but attack stat is important if you can Combine your damage and condition damage simultaneously and regularly.
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#2 Cynical

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

I will add just incase someone calls it op

Just stop the thief from Cloak and Dagger with blind, block, dodge(thats a good ability) stun etc(which you should be doing to all thieves with offhand dagger but thats a l2p issue)

Also you can ignore the thief there isn't much in the form of CC with this build except devourer venom.   If you don't have condition removal on you in WvW thats your fault.  If its on cooldown then well those are the breaks.   If I get blind sided by 100bs with haste and my shadow step is on cd it just the nature of these things.
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#3 Drake Erif

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:03 AM

I may have to try this out. It would definitely take some getting use to but man that guy is going to town in wvw... Slightly jealous of his skill

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#4 Jinks

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:40 AM

View PostDrake Erif, on 10 February 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

I may have to try this out. It would definitely take some getting use to but man that guy is going to town in wvw... Slightly jealous of his skill
It helps he faces complete morons.


When we played some the zerg servers 5v1 was not a problem

#5 BuddhaWrath

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:25 PM

The name for this build is: Yippie Yo Kaye Ultimate Build of Death Version VIII, please don't get it twisted.

I've fought these builds before, takes 3 ppl to take them out if you don't have plenty of CC. Fun looking build!
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#6 Drake Erif

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

View PostJinks, on 10 February 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

It helps he faces complete morons.


When we played some the zerg servers 5v1 was not a problem
It's possible this is the case. The first guy he fought seemed to know what he was doing, although the 1v2 against the 2 mesmers... They were crappy mesmers...

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#7 Jinks

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostDrake Erif, on 10 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

It's possible this is the case. The first guy he fought seemed to know what he was doing, although the 1v2 against the 2 mesmers... They were crappy mesmers...

I've watched his video's most of people he fights are bads, and he never posts his losses (which are many according to other players in tier 1)

#8 Jinks

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostBuddhaWrath, on 10 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

The name for this build is: Yippie Yo Kaye Ultimate Build of Death Version VIII, please don't get it twisted.

I've fought these builds before, takes 3 ppl to take them out if you don't have plenty of CC. Fun looking build!

No it does not take 3 people to take them out. I've not had severe problems against this build honestly.

#9 Cynical

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostJinks, on 10 February 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

I'm a Bad

Edited because its Sunday
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#10 Cynical

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostDrake Erif, on 10 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

It's possible this is the case. The first guy he fought seemed to know what he was doing, although the 1v2 against the 2 mesmers... They were crappy mesmers...

This first thief he fought was using P/D he was a 0/0/30/20/20 build.  He runs the same version I run  it was easy to tell because he has caltrops on dodge.  He had shadow refuge and shadow step but still lost.  That fight is suppose to be a draw or take forever until someone messes up.

Bill read him good he used devourer venom at the beginning of the fight which he normally doesn't do.   Made sure the thief couldn't get easy cloak and dagger.  Also with the leeching venoms trait he does more damage since he has 20 points in power and leeching adds extra damage to his venoms.  

Another thing you will notice that is important is that you don't want to apply spider venom until the person is about to heal or you think they will.  Most people dont try to heal until they are around 50%.
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#11 Jinks

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostCynical, on 10 February 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I stayed on Ebay so I wouldn't have to fight Jinks
Ya...

#12 Sebrent

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:39 PM

Meh ... for the most part it's simply [Auto-attack] -> [Cloak and Dagger] -> [Stealth Auto-attack] -> [Repeat]

Too effective for how simple it is for my taste.

#13 ChapDev

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostSebrent, on 11 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Meh ... for the most part it's simply [Auto-attack] -> [Cloak and Dagger] -> [Stealth Auto-attack] -> [Repeat]

Too effective for how simple it is for my taste.

Even if it isn't a true immobilize or stun breaker when they come in close Shadow Strike [3] is pretty handy.

I'm trying this at the moment except I'm using Caltrops with Spider Venom as my backup conditions, on that note if shoot with Spider venom from Stealth Auto-attack be aware you will use all of it up in those shots if that is your desired outcome or not.
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#14 Cynical

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:01 PM

View PostSebrent, on 11 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Meh ... for the most part it's simply [Auto-attack] -> [Cloak and Dagger] -> [Stealth Auto-attack] -> [Repeat]

Too effective for how simple it is for my taste.

View PostSebrent, on 11 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Meh ... for the most part it's simply [Auto-attack] -> [Cloak and Dagger] -> [Stealth Auto-attack] -> [Repeat]

Too effective for how simple it is for my taste.

Thats pretty much any thief build that I have seen for the most part. Steal, CnD, Autoattack (aka backstab), heartseeker.  

I can't think of any thief build that doesn't involve spamming anything.

Its the gift and curse of Initiative it allows us to spam certain skills but you really only want to spam the ones that are the most effective for your build.
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#15 Sebrent

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:25 AM

Meh, how can you enjoy that after the beauty of the Mesmer, Sinnacle? ;)

#16 Cynical

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostSebrent, on 12 February 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Meh, how can you enjoy that after the beauty of the Mesmer, Sinnacle? ;)

Haha well mesmer was fun definitely.  I feel like thief is harder to play than mesmer the reason I feel this way is when I started to play thief I was getting killed by abilities that I never payed attention to or needed to know that the enemy was doing.  I never died to 100bs on my mesmer and didn't need to know what it was.  Rangers so much easier put confusion on them and they kill themselves.  Thieves? np I have 4 stun breakers it was just that I feel like the way I engage a fight as a mesmer is always the same no matter what the enemy is.  I feel like thief you have to be on your toes and know what are the abilities of the other classes are to be effective.

Also thieves traits > mesmer traits :)
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#17 Sebrent

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:43 AM

Darn you, Sinnacle! Between your description and all the buds I have that make me feel slow on my Mesmer (they are thieves), I'm going to eventually have to cave and try it out, lol.

Hoping for a thief nerf so I'm not tempted to roll another new character, lol.

#18 Jinks

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:55 AM

View PostCynical, on 12 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Haha well mesmer was fun definitely.  I feel like thief is harder to play than mesmer the reason I feel this way is when I started to play thief I was getting killed by abilities that I never payed attention to or needed to know that the enemy was doing.  I never died to 100bs on my mesmer and didn't need to know what it was.  Rangers so much easier put confusion on them and they kill themselves.  Thieves? np I have 4 stun breakers it was just that I feel like the way I engage a fight as a mesmer is always the same no matter what the enemy is.  I feel like thief you have to be on your toes and know what are the abilities of the other classes are to be effective.

Also thieves traits > mesmer traits :)
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Thief is eZmOdEZ!!!



Well the scrubs that play p/d are at least.

#19 Sebrent

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

I'm jealous of the zerg-surfing. I can stealth quite a bit on my Mesmer but nothing close to that capacity ... I also don't remove conditions, recharge my resources, and heal while stealthed :@

#20 Uloii

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

View PostCynical, on 12 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

I feel like thief you have to be on your toes and know what are the abilities of the other classes are to be effective.
  +1

I think this was my big mistake playing a thief at first.   I still have a lot to learn, but I have figured out that often need to slow down a fight with a mesmer so I can figure out what to target.    With Pallys (Sorry I'm calling guardians pallys) I have found I normally need to do as much damage as quick as possible.
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