34 replies to this topic

[Gloom]

Hello all I have been playing warrior over a year now and in game fairly close to launch and see so many people struggling with their classes.  I have written a few guides to assist with the warrior class.  I am usually on in the evenings and love theory crafting with other players and if someone is looking to play a specific gimmick build such as rifle and would like help maximising it I am always there to help.  We once rolled out with a 5 man warrior death squad with rifles and had some of the most fun in WvW I have seen.  I primarily run full zerker for everything PvE and PvP.  I have no trouble hanging with the best and largest zergs and I 1 v 3 or less with ease as Burn E and me destroy borderlands.  I also SPvP quite a bit.  

I know several people suggest that WvW cannot be done in zerkers gear but anyone who has run with me has seen different.  I challenge you all to be better players and manage CDs.  Remember if CDs aren't being used then you probably didn't need the move to begin with.  As always I am Gloom.9683 and hope to see you all in game.

This is my first build and still a massive force on the field.  It is a great spec for people learning warrior looking to see big damage and AOE control.

http://intothemists....mmer_greatsword

This build is my current and newer Ax sword build.  It should be noted that the offhand can use really any weapon and my choice of sword OH is because I feel its the most offensive with best survivability.  
http://intothemists...._longbow_roamer

[Slein Jinn]

For large scale WvW, you're really doing your group a disservice by taking a Greatsword instead of Sword/Warhorn.  Warrior Warhorn, especially when traited with Quick Breathing, is one of the best frontline support tools available to any class; it provides great uptime on high-value boons along with tons of condition removal and a blast finisher, all on short cooldowns.  Pair the Warhorn with a Sword for the leap, and you've got a monster of a weapon set, especially given that Fast Hands allows you to get back to your hammer so quickly.  Greatsword is amazing in PvE, but against opponents that actually think and react, it's not a particularly strong choice; it lacks the support of other options for team play and the reliable burst needed for smaller scale fights.  Leave the Greatsword as a gimmick for NASCAR Warriors whose only speciality is running away after they lose; for serious warriors, there are better weapons outside PvE.  

Greatsword gives good personal mobility and some cheeseball DPS, but Sword/Warhorn gives you a similar level of personal mobility along with a ton of group support.  Likewise, your stances are decent for personal survivability, but you're taking them at the expense of a ton group support.  And the same again with Signet of Rage vs. Battle Standard.  All fine and dandy for solo roaming, but in team play, you'll fare much better if you focus more on support; five players built around supporting each other are collectively much stronger than five players each built to be strong individually.  Your build is essentially very selfish; I don't mean that to impugn your character as a person, but it's generally not the best way to build for WvW.  It might work for you in isolation because you're benefiting from others bringing more support, but if everyone builds that way, the zerg collapses, so remember Immanuel Kant.  

For Great Justice is one of the most important offensive skills there is in a zerg; any Warrior not running it is really wasting potential.  The combined impact of the boons you share with For Great Justice far outweighs the contribution of anything else you could run in its stead.  Similarly, building for personal condition removal with Cleansing Ire and Berserker Stance pales in comparison to Quick Breathing and a Warhorn, to say nothing of Runes of the Trooper.  And the group buffs from Battle Standard would outweigh the personal buffs from Signet of Rage even if it weren't for the massive value of Battle Standard for rallying allies.  

For larger scale WvW play, I would strongly recommend one of the following two builds over either that you've linked.  
More offensive - You'll maintain 10-15 stacks of Might, in addition to perma-Swiftness, nearly perma-Vigour, plenty of Fury, and quite a bit of condition removal.  
More defensive - You trade some of the Might stacking for even more condition removal and decent party healing.  

For smaller scale WvW and sPvP, your trait builds are pretty much the standard "meta builds", but again, it's not really advisable to run Greatsword over Longbow, Axe/Sword, or Axe/Shield.  Also, full zerk is just fine for roaming, but it's a rather different proposition for frontliners, especially if you're not compensating for it with such a "me-focused" build.

[Rimmy1a]

Gloom, on 12 May 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

I have no trouble hanging with the best and largest zergs and I 1 v 3 or less with ease as Burn E and me destroy borderlands.

Right on, fellow berserker!

Slein Jinn, on 16 May 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

because you're benefiting from others bringing more support, but if everyone builds that way, the zerg collapses, so remember Immanuel Kant.  

Ah, but if everyone builds with group support in mind, you lose out on damage unless you're constructing the group ahead of time to be tightly interwoven. I do know that during my time in a skill group that I got zero support from frontliners anyway (because they were out of range), but they were traited so defensively that it was like cotton balls touching felt. So I remembered Friedrich Nietzsche instead.

You are absolutely right that some people should build for support. Just not everybody. I find myself loving the roaming and extremely small group style of play a lot.

[Silvernis]

And what I want is my longbow warrior with a signet fetish. Super effective? I've no idea. Fun to play? Most definitely.

[Rimmy1a]

[Slein Jinn]

Rimmy1a, on 16 May 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Ah, but if everyone builds with group support in mind, you lose out on damage unless you're constructing the group ahead of time to be tightly interwoven. I do know that during my time in a skill group that I got zero support from frontliners anyway (because they were out of range), but they were traited so defensively that it was like cotton balls touching felt. So I remembered Friedrich Nietzsche instead.

You are absolutely right that some people should build for support. Just not everybody. I find myself loving the roaming and extremely small group style of play a lot.

"Support" doesn't necessarily mean "bunker".  A huge part of support is sharing offensive boons.  Warrior support is much more offensive in general than Guardian support.  

A Phalanx Strength Warrior will contribute more DPS than the OP's build.  Even ignoring the absolutely game-breaking strength of Quick Breathing--arguably the single strongest trait in the game--sustaining 10-15 Might stacks on a full party is worth a ton of damage, and you're sharing Fury to boot.  Add Quick Breathing into the equation, and you're clearing all soft CC's on a 12s cooldown and converting additional conditions to boons, which while not overtly offensive, makes it much more possible for people to deliver their DPS reliably.  And that's while piling up 15+ Might stacks on yourself on top of 2220 base Power (without Ascended gear).  It's far from a "cottonball" build.

[Rimmy1a]

A fair response, but he's not rolling with a skill group: he's soloing, small group roaming, zerging if there happens to be one.

Building as though he's part of a group takes away from what he does, and if he does happen to find himself with a group his build isn't a detriment to them either.

And the build you suggest doesn't shine in solo play, iirc.

[Slein Jinn]

Gloom, on 12 May 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

I have no trouble hanging with the best and largest zergs [...] This is my first build and still a massive force on the field.  It is a great spec for people learning warrior looking to see big damage and AOE control.

Slein Jinn, on 16 May 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

For large scale WvW
[...]
For smaller scale WvW and sPvP, your trait builds are pretty much the standard "meta builds", but again, it's not really advisable to run Greatsword over Longbow, Axe/Sword, or Axe/Shield.  Also, full zerk is just fine for roaming, but it's a rather different proposition for frontliners, especially if you're not compensating for it with such a "me-focused" build.

I made it crystal clear I was talking about large-scale WvW, and he explicitly mentioned using the build in zergs.  I don't know why you have some kind of agenda against promoting good builds for large-scale WvW, but it is worth emphasising the differences between a good 1v1 spec and a good zerg spec.  We have a desperate lack of properly built frontliners in our zergs these days as it is.

[Rimmy1a]

Slein Jinn, on 16 May 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

I made it crystal clear I was talking about large-scale WvW, and he explicitly mentioned using the build in zergs.  I don't know why you have some kind of agenda against promoting good builds for large-scale WvW, but it is worth emphasising the differences between a good 1v1 spec and a good zerg spec.  We have a desperate lack of properly built frontliners in our zergs these days as it is.

No so much an agenda, more that the larger zergs we field, when we field them, are often full of inexperienced rallybots anyway; may as well play the build you like rather than assuming larger group = competent.

Now if it was a single guild group, or a group that spent a little time tweaking their builds because they knew they were going to fight together, that would be a different thing. I don't think that most of us find ourselves in larger capable groups that often, do we?

[Slein Jinn]

Rimmy1a, on 16 May 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

No so much an agenda, more that the larger zergs we field, when we field them, are often full of inexperienced rallybots anyway; may as well play the build you like rather than assuming larger group = competent.

Now if it was a single guild group, or a group that spent a little time tweaking their builds because they knew they were going to fight together, that would be a different thing. I don't think that most of us find ourselves in larger capable groups that often, do we?

This is a big part of why we need a solid core of people running proper builds at the heart of those zergs.  And that's true of frontline support builds more than anything else.  There are two big ways EBay can improve as a server (aside from changing our population/demographics)--getting more people on Teamspeak, and getting more of our Warriors and Guardians running better builds.  The sheer awesomeness of a traited Warrior Warhorn just can't be understated, and it's so depressing that most of the time, when I'm running with a 30-man zerg (whether it's my tag or someone else's), I'll look at every single player there, and we'll usually have several Warriors, but I'm lucky if I can find a single Warrior running a Warhorn at all, let alone with Quick Breathing.  

EBay used to have really excellent PuG zergs.  It used to be really fun to command them, because you could really fight the other servers with our PuGs instead of just back-capping and karma-training.  I could tell stories for hours about great fights I've had with EBay PuG zergs.  These days, though, commanding our PuG zergs can get really demoralising really quickly, because our frontline so often just crumbles on the first push, even when you have even numbers and superior positioning.  There will always be inexperienced rallybots in a PuG zerg, but if you've got a solid core that you know will make the pushes with you, they'll help to hold things together, and you can carry the cannon fodder pretty far.  We used to have that.  I want to have it again.

[Rimmy1a]

Need people in guilds to form the core - that's where they crystallized back then.

Now it's forty people who fought in the old days, and the young blood who haven't been cut yet.

Or, the nearly dead and the newly bred if you will. :-P

It starts in the guilds, and trickles outward.

I'd personally like to see us leverage our low numbers into superior roamers and havoc groups, frankly.

It's sort of happening, in its clumsy way.

[Levik Greywind]

While a little off-topic, but still on warriors, I've been wondering about a build for my Warrior. I know what I'd want for him in WvW (shouts and/or banners, can swap skills and traits between fights for the situation as well as pick better weapons), but for PvE I like the greatsword because enemies don't run from hundred blades and when you name your huge norn Hjalti Stormblade, he better be using a sword of some kind. I mainly have him traited for forceful greatsword (4 in arms?) and 6 in tactics because I love all the supportive traits there and that all my favorite traits in there can be swapped out easily for other builds (last few points change from time to time).

Would you consider warhorn to be just as effective in PvE, too or is it mainly a WvW weapon? Right now I have him at knights with trooper runes (might get zerker trinkets) and greatsword (forceful GS + phalanx) + longbow/axe+mace and wondering if I should give sword/axe + warhorn a try for second set.

Pretty sure he'll have PVT with hammer and sword/warhorn (and traits to match) if I ever get off my ele in WvW.

[Gloom]

I love the hostile posts immediately from Sleinn Jinn.  I can't figure out for the life of me why so many people left the server with elitist assholes like this calling people out.  Its truly a shame that you can't fight my warrior build.  Of course after you lost you would sit around saying well as a commander my strategies are different.  The idea behind this build is killing the enemies when someone else is running a phalanx war horn build.  

I can assure you that contributions like yours are the reason that Ebay is and will remain a low ranking server.

[Slein Jinn]

What hostile posts?  My posts were purely constructive; there's infinitely more hostility in your little rant there than there is in anything I've posted here.  If you're so violently uninterested in any kind of feedback, why even post your build in a public forum?  "Debate" is kinda right there in the definition of "forum".

[matthen]

Gloom, on 17 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

I can assure you that contributions like yours are the reason that Ebay is and will remain a low ranking server.

Bold statement. I could just as easily assure you that the reason it is because of responses like this. Although frankly, I think that this holds about as much truth as your statement above.

People disagree on forums all the time. Post your piece, defend your position based upon the merits of your argument, and don't take it personally if every last person doesn't respond the way you'd like.

Back on topic.

In my experience, a lot boils down to what constitutes a zerg. PVT warhorn shines in situations where there is large numbers, long fights, and a baseline level of coordination. As you have less of these factors, PVT warhorn fares worse, and other build do better (relatively)... including GS, zerker, etc.

So I guess I agree with both Sleinn and Gloom, depending how the two sides of a fight are shaping up. The "meta" for zerg combat was not developed for most of the T7-8 fights.

To go slightly off-topic, one thing that I would recommend to any WvW warrior who is thinking about running warhorn: spend some time roaming with it. It's hard to know whether you are pushing the skill cap with your weaponset when you are running with a zerg... you just don't get the immediate feedback of your individual mistakes/successes. An offensive hammer + sword/warhorn build is by no means the roaming meta, but it will drop a lot of people (I prefer 0/0/30/20/20)... and you will learn what warhorn is all about. You will have to pay closer attention to what boons your are converting, when to swap, when to let AA do it's work, etc..

My 2cp.

[Gloom]

The spec I posted was in no way to taking away from anything that you choose to play.  I simply offered options for others looking for high damage skill builds and calling it a disservice was rather offensive.  That being said Slim Jim has offered enough small minded pandering and I would more than be happy to offer the challenge that he can take his build and we can run some duels.  He will play his spec and I will play mine and we will see what happens.  Now to make matters fair we can't ignore the massive skill gap so we can call it a win for Slim Jim if he can get me to half health before I down him.  I will be available all evening on the following weekend giving you plenty of time to get your affairs in order.  I am sure Burn E could moderate and I have Fraps and Twitch to commemorate the moment and will be absolutely thrilled to upload them to the post.

[Gloom]

I also don't see where the obsession was in the build I posted with the GS.  In the hammer build the damage comes from the hammer with the invulv and movement from the GS.  The current build I run with the ax has large damage on the ax with the OH set being up to the user.  I prefer the GS for mobility and the bow for node defense.

[Slein Jinn]

In large-scale combat, individual damage doesn't really mean anything.  What matters is the DPS that the whole zerg is putting out.  An offensive support build will ultimately contribute much more total damage to the zerg than a selfish high-DPS build would.  When you combine the offensive Phalanx Strength variant of the build I posted above with a Guardian, you're going to be capping might stacks for a group, and that amount of might on five players is ultimately worth more DPS than any one glass cannon would be.  

If you're intent upon a Greatsword build, I've put together a Destroyer Warrior build.  I've been hesitant to post such a build, because of what I was saying earlier about having a core of tanky frontliner support in zergs, but try THIS for a Phalanx Strength based Destroyer Warrior, dropping Quick Breathing for Empower Allies so that you can run Forceful Greatsword alongside Hammer.  There are a few viable variants of that; if you want to keep Sword/Warhorn over Hammer, you can drop Empower Allies for Quick Breathing LIKE SO.  You can also commit a little more heavily to the Hammer like THIS, which further pushes you to go a little bit glassier in the gear, especially since you're also getting Adrenal Health back.  Because it's a Destroyer build, we've given up a bit of personal survivability for more peak DPS, and because of the on-crit Might stacks, we've taken Knight's gear over Soldier's; ideally this build would be partied with a Vigorous Shouts/Quick Breathing Warrior and/or a Guardian or two to provide the healing and condition removal that it lacks.  By adding Forceful Greatsword to a Phalanx Strength build, you can basically fluctuate between sustaining 20-25 Might stacks on a full party single-handedly.  But given the availability of Guardians' Empower, it's debatable as to whether you really need 20-25 stacks of Might over the sustained 10-15 of the build I posted initially.  

I haven't wanted to post a true Destroyer Warrior build because, frankly, most of our uncoordinated PuG's are running fairly glassy DPS orientated builds, and we really need the more coordinated players to step up and take responsibility for forming that tankier, more supporty core.  These Destroyer builds are good, but you only want one or two of them in a balanced zerg comp at most, and that's including the PuG's bringing PvE builds, so in the end, we'd be a lot stronger if we just count the PvE-built non-TS players as pseudo-destoyers and focus our core on more optimised frontline support builds.  As I've said, Quick Breathing is a trait of unparalleled value, and Warrior Warhorns contribute an incredible amount to the group; the number of times we're running a 30+ man zerg with 4-5 or more Warriors, and literally no one is running a Warrior Warhorn tells me that we should really be focusing on getting people into running builds along the lines of what I posted originally.  If you're going to run such a Destroyer build, it's best to optimise it, though, so I guess it's worth opening the discussion on how best to build a Destroyer Warrior as well.

[Gloom]

There is no point other than mobility to running a greatsword on a warrior in pvp unless running a skullcrack build which only excels in 1v1.  Again you fail to understand where the damage is in the specs I posted and failed to mention anything about some duels.  You have stated your piece and I have stated mine.  All that is left is trial by combat.  Also stomp is a near worthless move considering other options.  The CD is too long and even a second stability would be much more beneficial for the stun break then wasting it on the pitiful damage stomp does.

AGAIN Trial by combat.

[Gloom]

The title also states "A Force to be Reckoned With" which does not mean a buff bot to supplement a commanders mediocre damage.  Had I titled it "How to carry an Ehmry Zerg" I could see confusion.