130 replies to this topic

[Jot]

Part One
Part Two

TL;DR:

• Trait lines turn into Specializations
  
• You can pick 3 -> Each lets you pick one Adept, Master & Grandmaster trait in that line (Can't have 2 Masters instead of 1 Master 1 Grandmaster)
  
• Some traits being removed and others rolled into skills (ie: Necro wells being groudn targetted) to make room for more useful ones
  
• Stats no longer tied to Traits/Specs -> Base stats and stats from gear increased to compensate
  
• Elite Specializations (ie: Druid) take up one of the 3
  
• Elite specs grant access to an additional: new weapon skills, elite spec traits, 1 Heal Skill, 4 Utility Skills, 1 Elite Skills and some change to class mechanic
  
• Every skill will have a category (ie: Heal as One becoming a Shout)
  
• Skill Points & Challenges replaced by Hero Points & Challenges
  
• Hero Points gained by levelling 1-80 or Hero (Skill)Challenges only
  
• Unlocking Specs/Skills work like PvP tracks (ie: Water Magic unlock track & Cantrip unlock track), unlocked via Hero Points
  
• Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge (all these scrolls...)

I think that about covers it. Personally I'm not sure if I should be looking forward to running essentially (assuming Traits don't change too drastically) a 6/6/0/0/6 or 6/0/6/0/6 Thief in PvP/WvW or running into one myself...

[Silvernis]

Not sure how I feel about all of this, tbh. On the one hand, it sounds like they're going to be doing some fairly logical reorganizing when it comes to traits and skills, and opening up new routes of customization. On the other, it also sounds like they're completely upending the basic system that's been in place more or less since launch. Could be awesome, could be a cluster.

[Crosius]

I really like that they're changing traitline specific stats - to be honest I've always hated that to spec down a particular traitline you are given stats that you may never even need. i.e. say I'm a power necromancer but need some traits from a condition stat increasing traitline: whatever traits I receive from that traitline may be useful, but that means you can be wasting 100 stat points in something you don't even need or use.

This is also true with mesmers. Most shatter mesmers that want to burst ALL the things run something like 4/4/0/0/6, and the final traitline does two things: reduces recharge on shatter skills, and increases condition damage. If you're full zerker, trying to work with a DPS shatter burst, condition damage will not help you at all. Yet you're receiving 300 points to increased condition damage. I'd MUCH rather have 300 points of power, thanks.


I really like that particular idea, because now specific traitlines wont be limited to condie builds, power builds, etc. Now you don't have a "stat crutch" coming from one traitline that has amazing traits, but a very poor stat that goes along with it (healing power or condition damage if you're a full power build, etc).

[UltraEM]

I'm going to guess that the Elite Spec weapon of Guardian will be the longbow

[thetoothpick]

Jot, on 23 April 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

• Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge (all these scrolls...)

Sooooooo... build your sup siege now?

[Whren]

Guess I'll need to start popping all 2k+ skill scrolls soon, which are currently rotting in my bank.

[thetoothpick]

I'm really curious as to how much of this is behind the paywall for the expansion.  If someone doesn't buy the expansion, are they stuck with the old system, or is that change coming to the core game and only the new content will be locked?  I can't imagine they would want to deal with the two systems simultaneously...

[KaiX]

This actually looks cool, I'm just thinking how obscene bunker ele will become with a 0/0/6/6/6 spec.  Think about it, you get everything from water, everything from arcana, and everything from earth like diamond skin if you wanted it, or rock solid+written in stone.  Although I am rather concerned because taking away stats from the trait lines could mean that eles will lose the boon duration from the arcane tree which honestly is a huge nerf.  We'll see how this goes.

[Slein Jinn]

Well, I had finally talked myself into cautious optimism about the specialisation changes, but these announcements have pushed me back into pessimism.  For one, holy power creep, batman.  Post-HoT builds are going to be insanely more powerful than current builds.  Imagine taking what's basically your current meta D/D cele ele... and adding Fresh Air.  Or having Survival of the Fittest without sacrificing anything from the full-YOLO Power Ranger build.  Balance is going to be completely turned on its head, and everything we know about builds is going to be obsolete.  Builds like the aforementioned that currently go deep in two trees will gain a ton of power.  Builds that currently spread the points among 3-4 trees (think Shatter Mesmer, Condi Necro, Shoutbow Warrior) are going to gain power, but substantially less of it.  

Basically, we're back to my initial fear that this won't be "GW2 with some new toys"--we might as well be playing GW3.  Everything we currently know about theorycrafting is obsolete.

[KaiX]

Crosius, on 23 April 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

I really like that they're changing traitline specific stats - to be honest I've always hated that to spec down a particular traitline you are given stats that you may never even need. i.e. say I'm a power necromancer but need some traits from a condition stat increasing traitline: whatever traits I receive from that traitline may be useful, but that means you can be wasting 100 stat points in something you don't even need or use.

This is also true with mesmers. Most shatter mesmers that want to burst ALL the things run something like 4/4/0/0/6, and the final traitline does two things: reduces recharge on shatter skills, and increases condition damage. If you're full zerker, trying to work with a DPS shatter burst, condition damage will not help you at all. Yet you're receiving 300 points to increased condition damage. I'd MUCH rather have 300 points of power, thanks.


I really like that particular idea, because now specific traitlines wont be limited to condie builds, power builds, etc. Now you don't have a "stat crutch" coming from one traitline that has amazing traits, but a very poor stat that goes along with it (healing power or condition damage if you're a full power build, etc).

You will probably have to mess around with your gear though to compensate for the loss of stats though(yes I know about the increase of base stats and stats from gear)

[Jot]

thetoothpick, on 23 April 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Sooooooo... build your sup siege now?

I'm just hoping that upgrading siege and other things using skill points in the Mystic Toilet use these crafting mats instead, so it won't be all bad

KaiX, on 23 April 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Although I am rather concerned because taking away stats from the trait lines could mean that eles will lose the boon duration from the arcane tree which honestly is a huge nerf.  We'll see how this goes.

Also a decently big hit to condi classes if they lose 30% condi duration from traits without anything to compensate (unless we get base condi/boon duration, but that would be really stupid)

Slein Jinn, on 23 April 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Post-HoT builds are going to be insanely more powerful than current builds.  Imagine taking what's basically your current meta D/D cele ele... and adding Fresh Air.  Or having Survival of the Fittest without sacrificing anything from the full-YOLO Power Ranger build.  Balance is going to be completely turned on its head, and everything we know about builds is going to be obsolete.  Builds like the aforementioned that currently go deep in two trees will gain a ton of power.  Builds that currently spread the points among 3-4 trees (think Shatter Mesmer, Condi Necro, Shoutbow Warrior) are going to gain power, but substantially less of it.

Pretty much; both S/D and D/P Thieves are going to love this change

[Silvernis]

Slein Jinn, on 23 April 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Builds that currently spread the points among 3-4 trees (think Shatter Mesmer, Condi Necro, Shoutbow Warrior) are going to gain power, but substantially less of it.

I don't intend to panic until we know more about how all of this will work in practice, but yeah, this is one of the things that has me a bit concerned. Some of my chars have points spread across more than three lines, and some of them have multiple traits from one tier because reasons.

In a more positive light, I for one am not opposed to thoroughly shaking up the current meta. (Not that I've ever put much stock in meta, but still.)

[Crosius]

KaiX, on 23 April 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

This actually looks cool, I'm just thinking how obscene bunker ele will become with a 0/0/6/6/6 spec.  Think about it, you get everything from water, everything from arcana, and everything from earth like diamond skin if you wanted it, or rock solid+written in stone.  Although I am rather concerned because taking away stats from the trait lines could mean that eles will lose the boon duration from the arcane tree which honestly is a huge nerf.  We'll see how this goes.

Slein Jinn, on 23 April 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Well, I had finally talked myself into cautious optimism about the specialisation changes, but these announcements have pushed me back into pessimism

I don't think that they're changing the trait system to include the capability of traiting THAT far into things, unless I read things wrong...

Lucent, are you sure you read that you can 6/6/6 something? They said you would be capable of choosing three specializations, but I don't think that entails being able to max everything in them - in case you didn't notice the specialization trees were completely separate from the trait trees themselves. The specializations just unlock specific major and minor traits available for choosing. I think you're getting a little too excited there.

I'll be looking things back over to make sure that I have the right idea here... But tomorrow they're answering their Q&A stuff from the forums so I doubt we'll have long to wait until things become a little more clear.

[zen]

So with stats being removed from traits, will the sub-stats (namely condi duration, boon duration, and class mechanic cool down) also be gone? I'd be very happy to see the condi duration go, but boon duration and class mechanic cool down is bit more hazy.

Also, the way I'm reading it, you only get 2 tracks if you use an elite track as well. So if you're thinking of 6 + 6 + 6 builds in the current trait system, then you will be forgoing the elite track? Guess we'll have to see what exactly what the elite track is with each class.

[thetoothpick]

Slein Jinn, on 23 April 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Basically, we're back to my initial fear that this won't be "GW2 with some new toys"--we might as well be playing GW3.

This is where I'm stuck.  I can't imagine them giving all this stuff out to people who haven't paid for the expansion when it basically reimagines most of the build system, but then I can't see them allowing people to play at all without all this new stuff.

So are they going to create separate servers for people to play on when they buy the expansion, or are they going to literally require that people buy it?  I find it hard to imagine either of those, but I can't see them doing a mixed system either.  So they might just push it into the core game.

Same goes for the new WvW map, too.

[Crosius]

OK. Looking at their weird picture here, you see the 3 traits associated with the specializations, and the lines connecting the choices this person has made. What's weird is this line from their forum post:
Traits

Each core specialization will have three minor traits associated with it. These are automatically equipped along with the specialization itself and help define the playstyle of that particular specialization.


What it looks like to me is that they're saying the minor traits "come" with the specialization, which explains the reason why you see a "6/5/5" looking build, because it could possibly be a "6/4/4" build but under their new system the minor traits you see are "automatically equipped"?

But what's more questionable is the fact that we see a specialization tree, but there is still a traits tab that is seen in this pic. So, perhaps you DO have to trait into them in a specific fashion the way we do now, but the specializations just unlock the specialization specific traits in those traitlines. I am not sure, I'll have to take some longer looks when I'm actually off campus. As of right now I just see them using specializations as a tunnel to other various trait goodies in a traitline you may like. But say I want just 1 or 2 traits in arcana instead of just those 3 specializations? people DO run 2/2/2/2 and other funky builds, which these specializations are not inclusive of. So I would not go saying "OH THEY ARE ALLOWING 6/6/6 BUILDS GG" because I'm sure that if Anet had half a brain they'd know it would start the next apocalypse.

[thetoothpick]

Crosius, on 23 April 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

I don't think that they're changing the trait system to include the capability of traiting THAT far into things, unless I read things wrong....

You read it wrong .

ArenaNet said:

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

[thetoothpick]

Crosius, on 23 April 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

OK. Looking at their weird picture here, you see the 3 traits associated with the specializations, and the lines connecting the choices this person has made. What's weird is this line from their forum post:

I think that picture is from a character where the traits aren't fully unlocked yet (see Specializations, Part Two: Reward Tracks and Elite Specializations).

[Slein Jinn]

Crosius, on 23 April 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

I don't think that they're changing the trait system to include the capability of traiting THAT far into things, unless I read things wrong...

You read things completely wrong.  

Quote

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

[Crosius]

thetoothpick, on 23 April 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

You read it wrong .

You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

This sounds a little too much like "select from" than actually USE 9 major traits... For the sake of build power creep, much like Slein has already warned us; I hope Anet just  had a poor choice of words.