44 replies to this topic

[Aduah]

I figure making a new thread to discuss each class change may make it  easier than sorting through one thread that has people discussing multiple classes.

I have mixed feelings on all of this.

So I'm wondering if anyone has completely changed up thier builds or if most people are going to try to run as close as they can to thier original build.

As it stands right now I'm running as close as I can to my original build. There have been some losses that I am unhappy with, and I can't say that I am particularly excited about any additional functionality.

The only thing I did find hilarious was the F5 for Elixer X. Turning up to 3 people into a moa is amusing, but its only for 3 seconds and it seems quite gimicky. I always thought Mesmer moaing was thoroughly annoying. Can you imagine multiple engineers turning your entire zerg into moas.

[Silvernis]

Downloading the patch now. I'm a little nervous about what I'm going to find when I open up my char panel.

[Aduah]

Silvernis, on 23 June 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

Downloading the patch now. I'm a little nervous about what I'm going to find when I open up my char panel.

They try to make your build as 'close as possible' to what it used to be. However, I've found that they aren't even close. However, you will start out with enough hero points to unlock all traits and skills.

[Slein Jinn]

Aduah, on 23 June 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

or if most people are going to try to run as close as they can to thier original build.

This is definitely not the way to produce the best results, especially for Engineers, which probably got the most radical rework of any of the classes.  It's way too early to say exactly what the optimal build is going to turn out to be--we don't even know what kind of meta we're going to be in yet--but there are a few builds that naturally emerge as candidates, and none of them very closely resemble previous builds, at least in terms of the traits--the utilities haven't really changed much.  

Explosives+Firearms+Inventions with grenades/toolkit/rifle is my current frontrunner.

[Aduah]

Slein Jinn, on 23 June 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

This is definitely not the way to produce the best results, especially for Engineers, which probably got the most radical rework of any of the classes.  It's way too early to say exactly what the optimal build is going to turn out to be--we don't even know what kind of meta we're going to be in yet--but there are a few builds that naturally emerge as candidates, and none of them very closely resemble previous builds, at least in terms of the traits--the utilities haven't really changed much.  

Explosives+Firearms+Inventions with grenades/toolkit/rifle is my current frontrunner.

I think there is nothing wrong with making a build the most like you are used to then branching out from there.

Personally I've taken (for WvW) Explosives, (Glass Cannon, Short Fuse, Shrapnel), Tools, (Static Discharge, Streamlined Kits, Adrenal Implant) & Firearms (Chemical Rounds, Pinpoint Distribution, Incendiary Powder) Because my armour is Rabid, and I deal conditions. Seems to make the most sense for me and my play style. The biggest change I may be inclined to make at this moment is my elite which the mortar kit seems to be fun, and doesn't have a cool down like other elites, so it will be easy to cycle. We'll see how much practicality it has in due time.

My sPvP build will be experimental until I find something I like.

I'm not so closed minded that I will not try anything else. But until I come to terms with the recent changes and/or I am forced out of my comfort zone, there is no reason I have to rush it.

Your build that are you are running, is it primarily a sPvP build? I know youve never seen my solo WvW play, so you aren't exactly aware of how I play. I generally rely very heavily on get in, get out bombing, dodging and kiting. Avoidance of being hit. Is there something that you think is more practical for a Solo/small group WvW build?

I have been considering a zerk build focused around bombs, just haven't been keen on spending the money on the armour for something that just might not be practical in the long run. Most people I have spoken to dont think its sound, but as it stands my bombs do the most amount of dmg to any other of my skills.

As you said, it its too early to say what meta will be, especially as people are still unfamiliar with all the new changes. Its never to early for theory crafting, and I know thats what you like to do.

[Aduah]

Oh man, I don't know if I was bugged or what, But it felt like I was lacking major sustain. Like I had no toughness. I was taking way too much dmg and backpack regenerator certainly wouldn't make up for what I've lost.

I'll have to give it another whirl tomorrow or something. I hope its just a bug, because something is majorly off. I haven't died to a camp in over a year on my engi. This morning I died. It was embarrassing.

[Biff Rangoon]

It may be from the loss of stats from your traits, with special attention to stats you aren't getting anymore because they're not on your gear. Player-wise it may be because everyone is running around WAY more lethal than they used to be.

I was dueling a very competent medi guard in OS last night and I killed him from full to zero in under 4s a few times... and he wasn't zerk (other times he wrecked me almost as fast). I also did 32,000 damage per npc at a camp in about the same timeframe and experimented with a build that generated a huge amount of might for my allies.

Nobody can sustain like they used to.

Check out your mortar kit though... it's nuts. I know you normally run condi, but zerk engi has a lot to offer too, it seems. Condi bombs still hit like a truck, but watch out for people who can apply resistance. If that icon goes up, they're going to dive strait to you and try to kill you before it wears off. I know I would....

[Silvernis]

Aduah, on 24 June 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Oh man, I don't know if I was bugged or what, But it felt like I was lacking major sustain. Like I had no toughness. I was taking way too much dmg and backpack regenerator certainly wouldn't make up for what I've lost.

I'll have to give it another whirl tomorrow or something. I hope its just a bug, because something is majorly off. I haven't died to a camp in over a year on my engi. This morning I died. It was embarrassing.

Now that you mention it, something does seem to be wrong with toughness. Going by memory, my pre-patch toughness with full rabid was around 2800 (which is about right according to the old build calc). When I looked last night, it was down to like 1900. Very odd. If anything, my toughness should be higher considering the boost to gear stats. Seems to be displaying OK now at least (just under 3000). Guess it was a fluke.

Toughness aside, my build hasn't really changed much. Most of what I was running before was either made baseline or worked into the same lines. My condi damage stat went up like 200-ish, though I'll need to 1v1/solo a bit to see if I notice a difference. I couldn't really tell last night with all the longbow pew pew. I'll keep tinkering; there are a couple new things I might try.

In other news, mortar kit is fun. It plays sorta like a slower, long-range grenade kit (which is a nice way of saying it's spammy and obnoxious, but if rangers can do it, so can I). The damage isn't off the charts with my build, but it does provide decent AOE pressure, and the fields could potentially be pretty useful, especially the blind and heal. Also, orbital strike is entertaining—buggy or at least inconsistent at the moment, but entertaining nonetheless. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't grinning like an idiot whenever it fired.

[Maksyn]

Aduah, on 24 June 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Oh man, I don't know if I was bugged or what, But it felt like I was lacking major sustain. Like I had no toughness. I was taking way too much dmg and backpack regenerator certainly wouldn't make up for what I've lost.

I'll have to give it another whirl tomorrow or something. I hope its just a bug, because something is majorly off. I haven't died to a camp in over a year on my engi. This morning I died. It was embarrassing.

Toughness is broken. Go play some matches in PvP - man oh man, do people get bursted down before you can even react. My bunker build, which was the same pre-patch, gets annihilated.

Condition damage and zerker is WAYYYYYY overpowered at the moment - will continue to play my engineer as I feel I enjoy it, but there's definitely some balance issues going on. Most of the builds I've seen for engineer seem to be going extremely kit heavy.

[UltraEM]

Aaaaaaand they nerfed the Mortar again. A 28% decrease in damage kind of nerf (10% would have been fine, Anet; jeez). Mortar #1 barely out-damages the Rifle #1 and is out-damaged by both Grenade and Bomb Kit. Thankfully the combo fields and orbital strike still make it kind of useful for support (though the cooldowns are too long, imo), and it's also our only 1500 range option. What bugs me the most is that this is an Elite Skill and the damage got nerfed just like that. Why would you nerf an Elite Kit to make it worse than the regular kits?

It's our only long range kit and they nerfed its damage hard, two days after patch, while the main problem that everyone is having, BURN damage, (and perma-quickness apparently) remains and continues to terrorize the game.

Back to Supply Crate spam?

EDIT: Also, Grenade Kit F2 is broken: you throw 12 grenades instead of 6, and it still has 1500 range. Happy hunting!

[Silvernis]

UltraEM, on 25 June 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Aaaaaaand they nerfed the Mortar again. A 28% decrease in damage kind of nerf

Really? Well, I guess my steamy affair with my new mortar kit is just going to be a one-night stand after all.

[UltraEM]

Silvernis, on 25 June 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Really? Well, I guess my steamy affair with my new mortar kit is just going to be a one-night stand after all.

Engi forums are going crazy. If they really had to nerf it, they could've started with a smaller value like 10-15%. I've very rarely seen other class skills get nerfed by such huge percentages. Now I really need to transform the stats of my Ascended Rifle that's lying around and give it to my Engineer. I need more damage on my kits.

Regarding builds: Right now I'm running Explosives (Grenadier, Shaped Charge, Siege Rounds), Inventions (Automated Medical Response, Mecha Legs, Bunker Down), and Alchemy (Protection Injection, Inversion Enzyme, HGH).

My Utilities are: Healing Turret, Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, Elixir B, and Elite Mortar Kit.

This is my current large-scale WvW/zerging build. I don't know if I can afford gear for a roaming build. Grenades are my primary source of damage mid-close range, while everything else is for group support. Mortar is still in there for the combo fields, long-range pressure (albeit limited due to the damage nerf), and orbital strike. I'll try it out more tomorrow.

[Biff Rangoon]

Aduah, on 24 June 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Oh man, I don't know if I was bugged or what, But it felt like I was lacking major sustain. Like I had no toughness. I was taking way too much dmg and backpack regenerator certainly wouldn't make up for what I've lost.

I'll have to give it another whirl tomorrow or something. I hope its just a bug, because something is majorly off. I haven't died to a camp in over a year on my engi. This morning I died. It was embarrassing.

Hey Fraani, there may still be hope for your play style and gear! A few of us were bashing each other around last night and someone was playing a condi engi that had great sustain and did good damage too. He won 1v1s with it and was on the winning team (with me ) for every 2v2 and 3v3 too.

I can ask him for the build if you want to try it out. I'm fairly certain he was using pistol/shield, but I don't know the stat package he had on it.

[Silvernis]

UltraEM, on 25 June 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Engi forums are going crazy. If they really had to nerf it, they could've started with a smaller value like 10-15%. I've very rarely seen other class skills get nerfed by such huge percentages. Now I really need to transform the stats of my Ascended Rifle that's lying around and give it to my Engineer. I need more damage on my kits.

Regarding builds: Right now I'm running Explosives (Grenadier, Shaped Charge, Siege Rounds), Inventions (Automated Medical Response, Mecha Legs, Bunker Down), and Alchemy (Protection Injection, Inversion Enzyme, HGH).

My Utilities are: Healing Turret, Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, Elixir B, and Elite Mortar Kit.

This is my current large-scale WvW/zerging build. I don't know if I can afford gear for a roaming build. Grenades are my primary source of damage mid-close range, while everything else is for group support. Mortar is still in there for the combo fields, long-range pressure (albeit limited due to the damage nerf), and orbital strike. I'll try it out more tomorrow.

The mortar hasn't become an integral part of my playstyle overnight, so I wouldn't be devastated if I shelved it again, but still, summarily nerfing anything by 28% is ridiculous. Like you said, adjusting by 10 or 15% would be a lot more reasonable. That being said, I'll likely keep running mortar for a while. Even with reduced damage, I like having it as a long-range option, and the fields can be useful.

For the moment, I'm running Firearms (Chemical Rounds, Pinpoint Distribution, IP), Inventions (Over Shield, Soothing Detonation, Bunker Down), and Tools (Reactive Lenses, Streamlined Kits, Adrenal Implant).

Utils are healing turret, elixir gun, flamethrower, rocket boots, and mortar. Everything is very much subject to change.

Gear is mostly full rabid.

Also, baseline pierce on pistol is surprisingly helpful.

[UltraEM]

Oh, and to those who don't know yet, half of the Elixir Gun skills (Toolbelt ,4,5) are now classified under "Elixir" and thus benefit from HGH and other traits that affect Elixirs.

[Slein Jinn]

Aduah, on 23 June 2015 - 10:14 PM, said:

I think there is nothing wrong with making a build the most like you are used to then branching out from there.

When things change as radically as they have, trying to work from the constraints of what you're used to will blind you to many possibilities and likely cause you to fail to recognise the strongest options.  The best approach is to start from a clean slate as far as possible.  Break away from your preconceptions as much as you can and look at each class as if it were a completely new class being added to the game for the first time--don't even assume you know what classes should fill what roles.  Try to identify the strongest build you can completely from the ground up.  

The new strongest Engineer builds are likely to be something substantially different from the previously strongest Engineer builds.  A 3-4 kit HGH build could be a thing now.  Running Flamethrower with Juggernaut for the pulsing Stability instead of a stunbreak could be a thing now.  Bunker Down has gone from garbage to something you can build around for sustain.  

Quote

Personally I've taken (for WvW) Explosives, (Glass Cannon, Short Fuse, Shrapnel), Tools, (Static Discharge, Streamlined Kits, Adrenal Implant) & Firearms (Chemical Rounds, Pinpoint Distribution, Incendiary Powder) Because my armour is Rabid, and I deal conditions. Seems to make the most sense for me and my play style. The biggest change I may be inclined to make at this moment is my elite which the mortar kit seems to be fun, and doesn't have a cool down like other elites, so it will be easy to cycle. We'll see how much practicality it has in due time.

The above is especially true if your old build wasn't optimal, which yours definitely wasn't.  Everybody is adjusting to new builds right now; it's the perfect time to throw off the shackles of a subpar build.  A one-kit Bomb build wasn't optimal in the past, and it almost certainly isn't optimal now.  

Glass Cannon should probably never be in any build outside of PvE ever.  Shrapnel is basically useless without Grenades--and even then, it's probably the weakest in that slot--whereas Thermobaric Detonation is incredibly strong in general, but has especially good synergy with Bomb Kit.  With what it has to compete against, Static Discharge isn't even a clear choice in zerker builds anymore, but in a Rabid build, it's basically gutter-tier.  

Quote

I'm not so closed minded that I will not try anything else. But until I come to terms with the recent changes and/or I am forced out of my comfort zone, there is no reason I have to rush it.

There's every reason to "rush it" - right now is when the meta is in flux and everyone is out of their comfort zone and adapting to new builds.  The longer you wait, the more likely you are to settle back into a comfortable pattern of the sub-optimal and fail to captialise on the opportunity presented by the complete paradigm shift underway.  

Quote

Your build that are you are running, is it primarily a sPvP build? I know youve never seen my solo WvW play, so you aren't exactly aware of how I play. I generally rely very heavily on get in, get out bombing, dodging and kiting. Avoidance of being hit. Is there something that you think is more practical for a Solo/small group WvW build?

I don't know what is optimal yet.  It's way too early to tell, especially with classes like Engi.  But Grenades as the primary offensive kit is almost certainly more optimal than Bombs.  Especially in terms of kiting--good players kite Bomb Engis; they don't get kited by them.  

Quote

I have been considering a zerk build focused around bombs, just haven't been keen on spending the money on the armour for something that just might not be practical in the long run. Most people I have spoken to dont think its sound, but as it stands my bombs do the most amount of dmg to any other of my skills.

Don't waste the money.  Zerker Engineer and Bombs are two things that should never go together.

---

There are a lot of interesting ideas floating around for Engineer right now, and I've been prioritising figuring out what I'm going to be playing in tournaments after my Warrior build got nuked rather than playtesting interesting Engineer builds, but I'd probably start with something like THIS for WvW, and probably take a different stunbreak for sPvP depending on how the meta develops, or even possibly without a stunbreak.  It might be worthwhile going in radically different directions entirely, though, like maybe something completely out of left field along these lines.  It's really hard to say at this point, but keep an open mind and start from no preconceptions.

[Slein Jinn]

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

It might be worthwhile going in radically different directions entirely, though, like maybe something completely out of left field along these lines.  It's really hard to say at this point, but keep an open mind and start from no preconceptions.

I actually just started messing around with this in some matches, and it's quite strong.  The Throw Mine and the runes might change, but it's got insane sustain with deceptive damage and quite a lot of group utility.  I'm definitely going to have to keep messing about with this.  I don't think they'd be great against top opponents, but Guardian runes are kinda fun on this one, for what it's worth, too--Gear Shield an enemy burst combo for like 5 Burn stacks, and the Toughness+Healing Power works well with the build, too.  I'm going to play Mercy runes a bit, probably.

[matthen]

Silvernis, on 25 June 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Really? Well, I guess my steamy affair with my new mortar kit is just going to be a one-night stand after all.

Torrid, wet, and sloppy encounters with gadgets? TMI, dude. Personally, my engine is going to keep his rifle holstered. At the very least, with all these condi's flying around, I will have to keep the pistol shielded until I can things settle down enough to develop a stable relationship with the new trait system.

Wait... what are we talking about?

[Aduah]

UltraEM, on 25 June 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Aaaaaaand they nerfed the Mortar again. A 28% decrease in damage kind of nerf (10% would have been fine, Anet; jeez).

Mortar kit is okay, but I noticed (maybe it was bugged) that it didn't do much dmg.  I seriously was getting MAYBE 200-550 dmg. Its was completely useless. considering the cast time and delay, especially for an elite.

Biff Rangoon, on 25 June 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Hey Fraani, there may still be hope for your play style and gear! A few of us were bashing each other around last night and someone was playing a condi engi that had great sustain and did good damage too. He won 1v1s with it and was on the winning team (with me ) for every 2v2 and 3v3 too.

I can ask him for the build if you want to try it out. I'm fairly certain he was using pistol/shield, but I don't know the stat package he had on it.

Sure. I need to do what I can to salvage this armour and runes. I dont currently have the will to make another set. So I'm open to suggestion as long as it is something I can play.

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

When things change as radically as they have, trying to work from the constraints of what you're used to will blind you to many possibilities and likely cause you to fail to recognise the strongest options.  The best approach is to start from a clean slate as far as possible.  Break away from your preconceptions as much as you can and look at each class as if it were a completely new class being added to the game for the first time--don't even assume you know what classes should fill what roles.  Try to identify the strongest build you can completely from the ground up.  


The new strongest Engineer builds are likely to be something substantially different from the previously strongest Engineer builds.  A 3-4 kit HGH build could be a thing now.  Running Flamethrower with Juggernaut for the pulsing Stability instead of a stunbreak could be a thing now.  Bunker Down has gone from garbage to something you can build around for sustain.  


The above is especially true if your old build wasn't optimal, which yours definitely wasn't.  Everybody is adjusting to new builds right now; it's the perfect time to throw off the shackles of a subpar build.  A one-kit Bomb build wasn't optimal in the past, and it almost certainly isn't optimal now.  

I don't exactly think my build was subpar in any aspect. Optimal? Maybe not for pro gamers or people who are actually good. But optimal for my chosen playstyle or ability? Yes.

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

Glass Cannon should probably never be in any build outside of PvE ever.  Shrapnel is basically useless without Grenades--and even then, it's probably the weakest in that slot--whereas Thermobaric Detonation is incredibly strong in general, but has especially good synergy with Bomb Kit.  With what it has to compete against, Static Discharge isn't even a clear choice in zerker builds anymore, but in a Rabid build, it's basically gutter-tier.  

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

I don't know what is optimal yet.  It's way too early to tell, especially with classes like Engi.  But Grenades as the primary offensive kit is almost certainly more optimal than Bombs.  Especially in terms of kiting--good players kite Bomb Engis; they don't get kited by them.

Glass cannon a poor choice. Probably. But given the other two were directly tied to grenades ( I could be mistaken), I chose that because it could have some utility. I don't use grenades, so grenade related traits are useless for me.  Now before we go into, 'You should be running grenades, why aren't you running grenades?" I have to state the obvious. I'm not talented or coordinated enough for it. Sad. Ugly. Truth. I can't lead people with my grenades. Use of grenades rrequirres you to be able to get them in front of people. I have bad timing with my grenades. Oddly my timing with dodge is pretty good. I guess im better at reaction. Regardless of whether you think or know grenades are better than bombs, lies in player skill. Grenades could very well be the weapon of god (they of course aren't), but if I don't know how to control it, what good does it do me?

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

There's every reason to "rush it" - right now is when the meta is in flux and everyone is out of their comfort zone and adapting to new builds.  The longer you wait, the more likely you are to settle back into a comfortable pattern of the sub-optimal and fail to captialise on the opportunity presented by the complete paradigm shift underway.  

Rushing it only does good to those who are good at theorizing and testing builds. I am neither of these things. My builds have adapted as I play. They adapt as i need them to adapt. If something isn't working. I change it. If I experience a change in meta that is difficult for me to be, then I experiment. As I said I am better at being reactive then proactive. It better for me to sit and watch as meta develops in the new classes so i can then figure out how to counter them.

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

There are a lot of interesting ideas floating around for Engineer right now, and I've been prioritising figuring out what I'm going to be playing in tournaments after my Warrior build got nuked rather than playtesting interesting Engineer builds, but I'd probably start with something like THIS for WvW, and probably take a different stunbreak for sPvP depending on how the meta develops, or even possibly without a stunbreak.  It might be worthwhile going in radically different directions entirely, though, like maybe something completely out of left field along these lines.  It's really hard to say at this point, but keep an open mind and start from no preconceptions.

I'm happy to give it a go, at least in PvP, as it doesn't fit my gear I currently have.

----------------------

That being said. I haven't had a lot of time to play since the changes. I've been incurably busy, and its frustrating since I haven't been able to play test a ton of my engi.

[Blackthorn]

Aduah, on 25 June 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

Sure. I need to do what I can to salvage this armour and runes. I dont currently have the will to make another set. So I'm open to suggestion as long as it is something I can play.

You probably know this already, but if it's an ascended set, you can change the stats on it now using this. You lose the runes and infusions (which I know is no small loss for you), but it saves you having to deal with time-gated crafting and the massive amount of materials needed.