14 replies to this topic

[Biff Rangoon]

So, I was giving some thought to wvw warrior builds (surprise) in this new era of ultra gank in which we find ourselves, and I may have come up with something interesting.

I wanted something that takes advantage of some of the new possibilities under the current trait system, maintains pretty solid damage pressure, and has enough mitigation to stay up and fighting. I came up with this:

http://intothemists....P;9;9;9;9;0477z

Damage Highlights:

• High direct damage in both sets, with more on the greatsword
  
• Good condi damage on the swords
  
• 50% crit chance out of the box, with average crit somewhere in the 85-90% range
  
• Excellent crit-powered might stacking, plus runes, signets, and weapon swaps, helping both direct and condi damage
  
• Vulnerability stacking through crits (33%) always and on gs auto, further helping condi and direct damage
  
• Bleed stacking through crits (33%) and sword skills at +53% duration all the time. (+88% duration if Sweet Bean Buns is used)
  
• Pretty decent torment via sigil and sword 5 (plus option to rip sword 5 for damage hit)
  
• Damage conditional modifiers that are always on: +5% (might), +5% (bleed), +10% (spend endurance), +20% (on adren use), crit, and vulnerability

Defense Highlights:

• 3k armour
  
• 2 1/4 second block every 12s against ranged (against next attack in melee, further stacking bleeds)
  
• +50% energy regeneration rate
  
• +50% energy on every second weapon swap (i.e. 10s)
  
• High mobility and escape (with 4 movement skills that break immobilize)
  
• Condi removal on swap (every 5s), on signet use (purge all), short term resistance if opponent almost dead or if escape is necessary, anti-condi food
  
• Stability (10 stacks, 8s, 48s CD)

Additional Notes:

• I originally looked at sinister gear, but this approach gets better results (imo) using gear that could be used on diverse builds across different characters
  
• Hoelbrak Runes for less might duration but additional -20% condi duration is a viable option, possibly better depending on the situation. Aristocracy Runes could work too.
  
• There's room to customize sigils and gear stat setup for different tastes and budgets. Agony Sigil should probably replace one of the sword sigils, but not sure which. Doom Sigil is another good option.
  
• This provides no party support, which seems wrong when roaming seems so much less viable than it has been.
  
• Not sure what amulet this would use in pvp (maybe cele?), or even if this could work there

Fight Strategy

• Against builds with solid condi clear, spend more time on gs
  
• Against builds with good damage mitigation but poor condi clear, spend more time on swords
  
• Sword now has equal mobility to gs (arguably more), so either set is good for that
  
• Either burst can be used with impunity, but don't rely on sword burst against warriors (most can break it)
  
• Bulls->100b->Arcing Slice->Whirlwind->Rush/Savage Leap->Final Thrust->Impale->Sword Auto->Flurry->100b.... and so on is an infinite loop that you can keep mining as long as you don't need to bail
  
• The gs rotation plus runes/signets can stack 20+ might off the bat plus another 10+ Furious Surge, which is a boost of 700 condi damage and 600 power for the sword
  
• Switching in Sweet Bean Buns for food (I can't believe I never noticed these super broken treats) makes fully channeling Flurry worthwhile for a fair chunk of bleed application following a the hard hitting gs rotation, and would provide +20% for the damage spike from Final Thrust (if you can land it)

So, what do you warriors and theorycrafters think? Is this a successful marriage of two aggressive styles that can stand the test of time like....



Or saccharine-laden flop that should never see the light of day like....




I'm going to run this for the next while using mostly this gear to see how it plays. I haven't seen anything like this on any forums so far, so either I've stumbled onto something innovative or it's trash that everyone else recognized right away.

Edits:

• Sweet Bean Buns is clearly the best broken food option (thanks Liric!). Editor doesn't seem to have it so, you know, use your imagination and stuff
  
• Aristocracy Runes are a cheaper alternative to Strength Runes

[Blackthorn]

Okay, you know I know nothing about warrior, so this is more of a question than anything, but ...

One thing that catches my eye is that you're going with the healing signet and restorative strength. You've got signet mastery so the CD isn't too bad, but I usually find that if I've gotten a warrior to the point that they need to pop their signet, they'll be down shortly and therefore the might isn't going to do much for them. Would it not be better to use one of the other heals, then? Or switch to peak performance for the reduced CD on Bull's Charge?

[Biff Rangoon]

Blackthorn, on 27 June 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Okay, you know I know nothing about warrior, so this is more of a question than anything, but ...

One thing that catches my eye is that you're going with the healing signet and restorative strength. You've got signet mastery so the CD isn't too bad, but I usually find that if I've gotten a warrior to the point that they need to pop their signet, they'll be down shortly and therefore the might isn't going to do much for them. Would it not be better to use one of the other heals, then? Or switch to peak performance for the reduced CD on Bull's Charge?

Great question. While Peak Performance is great for the 8s cd shave on Bull's Charge, I'm not sure it's better at the moment. Healing Signet's been changed and the traits open up reasons to use the active beyond a last minute desperation heal. In fact, I'd never use HS for that on a build like this because escape and kite is the better option.

Rather, I'm more likely to use it at the start of a fight to gain a one minute +100 precision bonus (I can have up to five stacks of that) and the 5 stacks of might for 9s from the trait (duration bonus from runes). If taking a camp, it gives me the extra bonus of being able to ignore blind fields for 6s.

Where I might use it defensively is when fighting a condi heavy class that had just unloaded on me. I could use signet to ignore the conditions via 6s of resistance while gaining the might+precision buffs, maintain full damage pressure on the opponent, pop stamina signet to clear them all if the load was still high after 6s, continue applying pressure in hopes the opponent is out of burst or too pressured to be a threat for the next 10s when HS is off CD.

What I'm testing at the moment is if I find myself being hampered by the longer CD on bull's charge, if I'm getting any noticeable benefit from the might on heal, or if I'm better off traiting for falling damage because, well, lulz. Honestly though, Bull's Charge doesn't move as fast as it used to and it's just as buggy as always. A case could be made for dropping it altogether on a build like this, but I still like it.

Also, the test went reasonably well tonight. It doesn't do as much direct damage as some of the builds I've been running, but I was certainly dropping fools. I find camp claimers to be handy test bots and I managed to put a quickened 20k 100 blades into one followed by an 8.5k final thrust while he was ticking 1200 in bleeds. I'm unlikely to get that much into a capable player, but even half of that is a lot of pressure.

[Liric]

You might consider Sweet Bean Buns as food:

+25% Condition Duration (outgoing)
-40% Condition Duration (incoming)

[Blackthorn]

Thank you, Biff! I didn't know the active on healing signet gave resistance, so that certainly gives incentive to use it, especially against condition builds. For general roaming purposes, it sounds like the healing signet is the way to go with this build.

I shared this with Zesh and we talked about it on TS for bit. One of the things he mentioned was that you might wanna swap the sigils around, but it looks like you already went and did that. The other thing was rune choice. Obviously the added might is nice since it boosts your power and condi damage, but if someone couldn't afford those, what could you recommend in its place? Krait, perhaps?

[Biff Rangoon]

Blackthorn, on 27 June 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Obviously the added might is nice since it boosts your power and condi damage, but if someone couldn't afford those, what could you recommend in its place? Krait, perhaps?

Yeah, the runes are costly alright. You can save some money going Hoelbrak, but they're not cheap either. I suppose Aristocracy might work if you're wiling to do a little dungeon running or pvp on the Caudecus track... they'd give you more condi damage and you'd get the same might duration bonus that strength runes give.

You could go Krait but, to be honest, I find warriors do better dealing direct damage over condis due to lack of condi diversity (though Krait helps with that). Might is what really ties this build together, allowing good output of both direct and condi damage, and might runes extend that benefit to both weapon sets. Condi focused runes would only bring benefit to the sword set while most of the might would be stuck on the gs, so I'd be inclined to drop the gs and might stacking altogether in favour of the bow in that case.

If forced to choose between amping condis or direct damage on a s+s/gs build, I'd go direct damage everytime. Boosting power and/or ferocity would be better than boosting condis with this weapon set, imo, and I'd probably swap out the condi gear on there now if I couldn't sustain the might linchpin.

[Slein Jinn]

Mixing Rabid with Zerker can't be optimal.  Probably some kind of mix of Celestial, Sinister, Carrion, or maybe even Captain's would work better.

[Biff Rangoon]

I hear you on that, but if I'm reading it right, the only "wasted" stat is condi damage from the trinkets while on gs (bleed on crit not withstanding).

[Slein Jinn]

The problem is that the stat you've gone all in on is Precision, which is about the weakest stat you could stack that heavily; you're lacking in both Power (from the Rabid) and Condition Damage (from the Berserker).

[Biff Rangoon]

Slein Jinn, on 27 June 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

The problem is that the stat you've gone all in on is Precision, which is about the weakest stat you could stack that heavily; you're lacking in both Power (from the Rabid) and Condition Damage (from the Berserker).

I felt the same when I started out, not just because power and condi is better but also because I can maintain +500 precision from the trait line fairly easily. I generally think a crit chance too high above 50% (limited Fury aside) is a lost opportunity to get a more valuable stat (i.e. the opportunity cost is too high at that point).

But when every crit within a 7-9 sec period effectively gives me 30 power and 40 condi damage, things start to look a bit different. By investing in precision through gear, I benefit both weapon sets in terms of crit chance and power, and then condi damage for the swords. If I was to put those gear stat points to more condi, it would be at the expense of power on both sets. If I put those gear stat points into power, then it would be at the expense of condi damage on the swords. Consequently, the opportunity cost is actually pretty good for precision on this build.

That vulnerability and bleeds also proc on 1/3 of crits further improves the relative value of precision than would normally be the case.

[Liric]

Have you tried on-kill stat stacking sigils to supplement stats? I usually like to stack those up with the guard bonuses before I actually "start" really roaming.

[Biff Rangoon]

Liric, on 28 June 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Have you tried on-kill stat stacking sigils to supplement stats? I usually like to stack those up with the guard bonuses before I actually "start" really roaming.

I haven't since the new system went into place, and likely won't until the balance is achieved. I'm finding getting downed is much more common at the moment, and I don't have a lot of patience for continually building stacks. Bloodlust would be the clear choice if I did though.

As a report in on testing:

• The build works reasonably well so far
  
• It isn't as permanently aggressive as the builds I've been playing previously, meaning greater mid-fight analysis is required (what's working? should I change up style? etc)
  
• Being able to apply direct damage, condi damage, or both allows me to pressure more diverse builds (most builds don't seem to have great protection against both)
  
• Almost nobody can escape the build, though changes to warrior means I can still be caught by others
  
• The mobility, block, and signet choices/cd allow you to stay on your feet more easily than some of the full zerk cannons I've tried out
  
• Damage burst is less than the above, even with might stacking, but it's still reasonably high especially if you can land a Flurry or two
  
• Applying the bleeds is important. It's not the primary damage source, but opponents often don't realize you're applying it (assuming you're all direct damage) and the bleeds add up

On the last point, I was fighting a standard burst thief last night that had lots of counters to my big damage hits... he got out of the knockdown, he dodged some of the big hits, and he shadow stepped when I hit him with a Flurry immobilize. What really did him in, and I'm not sure that he knew it, was a period where I was just auto attacking him with the sword waiting for a couple of cooldowns. They aren't scary hits, and he was saving his main defenses for the big telegraphed hits (like being locked into a 100b).

Though I got him with a couple of Whirlwind's (which are brutal) over the course of the fight and an Arcing Slice (which is also a big hit), I think it was the Death by a Thousand Cuts that pushed it over the edge. He died in stealth to those bleeds, and he will not be remembered.

Stalemated with a pretty competent (gold general rank) mesmer several times. Our disengages were too good for the other to finish the job, though it was clear his build had the advantages. Saw Wump fighting him later, and I snuck up behind him (like warriors do, Masters of Stealth that they are) and ruined his day.

I'll stick with the build for a few days more, and will then experiment with some others. I'm interested in exploring gs/lb or s+x/gs builds, but don't find myself excited about it. M+Sh/GS builds are getting more attention these days, not surprisingly, and I saw this build today that seems so wrong to me conceptually, but it looked kind of fun (and I've been wrong before).

[Liric]

I find that's what wins some fights for me also...they don't realize the real threat of the seemingly innocuous auto attacking hits and are looking for those telegraphed shots. The mind games - faking attacks by sheathing, creating strange distances between you - seem to distract some people from their sinking health as well. I'm just really sad about the mobility nerfs we've received.

[matthen]

When I am on... I am messing with GS/LB (not enough lockdown), GS/Ham (kiteable), LB/Swordhorn (not exciting). Never liked GS/dualsword play style.

Would love to duel. Hit me up.

[Biff Rangoon]

Sword provides the best mobility now... mainhand sword takes you as far and as fast (over time) as the gs, but sword 2 doesn't get bugged on inclines, environment, etc. and has shorter more frequent movement bursts, which is better in combat. It's one of the big reasons I'm using swords right now.

I'm up for fighting whenever, matt.