39 replies to this topic

[Rimmy1a]

Bishop, on 06 September 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

Rimmy, my friend... less thesaurus, more pew pew. Look at our tick!

The tick is fleeting, and I know chicks dig my huge diction.

[Slein Jinn]

I'd say "acumen" is a C1+ level word.  I'd expect most C1-level students to handle it in receptive skills, but few to use it in productive skills.  I've had C2 students use "sycophant" in writing assignments before.

[Rimmy1a]

Slein Jinn, on 07 September 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

I'd say "acumen" is a C1+ level word.  I'd expect most C1-level students to handle it in receptive skills, but few to use it in productive skills.  I've had C2 students use "sycophant" in writing assignments before.

Sure, but your students don't have English as their first language.

And it's just sad when people try to rip you for using a word they should have at least been able to infer from usage.

[Slein Jinn]

Rimmy1a, on 07 September 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

Sure, but your students don't have English as their first language.

That's kinda my point.  If EFL students can handle the word, then native speakers certainly should be able to do so.

[Liric]

Who cares what some insignificant online person thinks of your vocabulary anyway?

[Rimmy1a]

Liric, on 08 September 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Who cares what some insignificant online person thinks of your vocabulary anyway?

Not I, but I was surprised at the reaction so wanted to do a quick check outside of the use-anything-to-attack forum for my own interest.

They were probably more pissed that I compared people who say "GvG us then!" in response to literally every question/complaint/point to passive-aggressive God botherers. And since the comparison is so perfectly unassailable, went for the vocab.

[cassy]

Was this on the WvW forums?

Slein Jinn, on 08 September 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

That's kinda my point.  If EFL students can handle the word, then native speakers certainly should be able to do so.

Aren't you at a private school though?  It can slant the stats.

[Rimmy1a]

Yep, last week.

[Slein Jinn]

cassy, on 08 September 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

Aren't you at a private school though?  It can slant the stats.

I am*, but no it can't.  I'm referring to students at specific CEFR levels.  CEFR levels are assessed along the same criteria regardless of where a student is studying, not just in Poland, but anywhere in the world except for the U.S. (because... reasons).  Students who attend private supplemental English lessons doubtless climb up the CEFR levels more quickly than those who don't, but a state school student at C1 level can do the same things that anyone else can do at C1 level; if they had different abilities, they'd be at different levels.  

* Mostly.  I have been teaching in my city's top state secondary school one day a week for the past three years.

[cassy]

Slein Jinn, on 09 September 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

I am*, but no it can't.  I'm referring to students at specific CEFR levels.  CEFR levels are assessed along the same criteria regardless of where a student is studying, not just in Poland, but anywhere in the world except for the U.S. (because... reasons).  Students who attend private supplemental English lessons doubtless climb up the CEFR levels more quickly than those who don't, but a state school student at C1 level can do the same things that anyone else can do at C1 level; if they had different abilities, they'd be at different levels.  

* Mostly.  I have been teaching in my city's top state secondary school one day a week for the past three years.

Ahh like the A levels, but lower, I get it now.  Pretty much any standard that has the word European in the name won't be adopted by America and testing has already become very contentious.  As it stand we have 50 states each with its own educational system contributing to our own standards.

It looks like we are an observer to the European system currently, which is reasonable.

If we started comparing Arkansas with Turkey, the results would be heated.

Rimmy1a, on 09 September 2015 - 01:06 AM, said:

Yep, last week.

I don't go to those forums any more because they make absolutely no sense to me.

[Slein Jinn]

cassy, on 09 September 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Ahh like the A levels, but lower, I get it now.  

Unless "A-Levels" has some other American meaning aside from the GCE's of the British educational system, then no, it's absolutely nothing like that, and it's certainly not "lower".  CEFR levels are standards for evaluating the full range of language competency, from true beginner to full proficiency.  

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Pretty much any standard that has the word European in the name won't be adopted by America and testing has already become very contentious.  As it stand we have 50 states each with its own educational system contributing to our own standards.

It looks like we are an observer to the European system currently, which is reasonable.

If we started comparing Arkansas with Turkey, the results would be heated.

I don't go to those forums any more because they make absolutely no sense to me.

It has nothing to do with state educational systems or comparing the English competency of students in Arkansas with those in Turkey.  The CEFR is specifically for learners of second and foreign languages.  The U.S.'s refusal to adopt the CEFR and the exams that are built around it--most importantly, IELTS--is rather problematic internationally.  IELTS (and sometimes FCE, CAE, and CPE equivalency) is the standard used for immigration, university admissions, work visas, and other such matters all over the world.  Except in the U.S., where people are usually required to present TOEFL scores instead--an exam that's completely useless outside of North America.  This can be a nightmare for someone looking for work or applying for universities in multiple countries.  

But that's all looking at it only through the lens of English.  The CEFR is designed to be able to be used for any language that is being learnt as a second or foreign language.  Given how utterly woeful foreign language education is in the U.S., assessing the performance of American students studying Spanish, for example, along the CEFR criteria certainly couldn't hurt.  And there's nothing unfair about comparing the levels of Spanish learners from Arkansas to those of Spanish learners from Turkey; either they speak Spanish at the same level, or they don't.  The CEFR merely offers a tool for describing and classifying whatever level of competency they've achieved.  Students will advance up the CEFR levels at whatever pace the education system in which they participate facilitates, but knowing exactly what level you're at right now has a lot of value, especially when it comes to things like describing your language ability on a CV.  Being able to say, "I speak Spanish at B2 level," is a lot more valuable than being able to say, "I studied Spanish for three years in high school."

[Aduah]

Im a bit late on this reply, but I've always liked you for vocabulary. I dont actually have the widest vocabulary in the world, but I can always appriciate a word I dont know. I spend a good deal of time on dicitionary.com/thesaurus.com trying to find new words i've never heard of, but like. Cuz I'm a loser who isn't eloquent but aspires to be so. bahaha

[Rimmy1a]

Aduah, on 10 September 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Im a bit late on this reply, but I've always liked you for vocabulary. I dont actually have the widest vocabulary in the world, but I can always appriciate a word I dont know. I spend a good deal of time on dicitionary.com/thesaurus.com trying to find new words i've never heard of, but like. Cuz I'm a loser who isn't eloquent but aspires to be so. bahaha

I'm a freakin' prophet:

Rimmy1a, on 07 September 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I know chicks dig my huge diction.

[cassy]

Slein Jinn, on 10 September 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with state educational systems or comparing the English competency of students in Arkansas with those in Turkey.  The CEFR is specifically for learners of second and foreign languages.  The U.S.'s refusal to adopt the CEFR and the exams that are built around it--most importantly, IELTS--is rather problematic internationally.  

The latter is very much related to the former.  Trying to get any national standard in any subject is highly political. 50 states get to vote, edit, or filibuster any national standard.  So if it would make 1 state look bad, that state is unlikely to allow it.

Also keep in mind that in America you can drive 2,000 miles without ever needing to know a second language.  If you have a passport you can drive more than 3,000 miles without ever needing another language.  So it isn't a day to day priority for most people. Secondary languages are mostly used in some international trade, and for recreational travel.  Border states are the big exception, and Mexico doesn't use the European standard either.  So there isn't a big push for it here.  

CEFR may be lovely, but it is a European standard, and unlikely to be a U.S. standard soon.

[Slein Jinn]

cassy, on 10 September 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

The latter is very much related to the former.  Trying to get any national standard in any subject is highly political. 50 states get to vote, edit, or filibuster any national standard.  So if it would make 1 state look bad, that state is unlikely to allow it.

State education policy is an issue for secondary schools.  It has little bearing on university admissions and none on immigration policy.  Also, it puts the U.S. at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to attracting top international students and professionals, because it requires them to meet a separate standard to what they can use to pursue opportunities anywhere else in the world.  

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Also keep in mind that in America you can drive 2,000 miles without ever needing to know a second language.  If you have a passport you can drive more than 3,000 miles without ever needing another language.  So it isn't a day to day priority for most people. Secondary languages are mostly used in some international trade, and for recreational travel.  Border states are the big exception, and Mexico doesn't use the European standard either.  So there isn't a big push for it here.  

Yet Americans still study foreign languages.  They just get less out of it for the time invested because they approach it poorly.  If something's worth doing, it's worth doing right.  Besides, learning foreign languages is still a highly valuable enterprise for Americans to pursue--whether they appreciate it or not--for a wide variety of reasons.  

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CEFR may be lovely, but it is a European standard, and unlikely to be a U.S. standard soon.

It may have "European" in the name, but it's effectively a global standard.  It's used from Australia to China to Brazil.

[Silvernis]

Slein Jinn, on 11 September 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Yet Americans still study foreign languages.  They just get less out of it for the time invested because they approach it poorly.  If something's worth doing, it's worth doing right.  Besides, learning foreign languages is still a highly valuable enterprise for Americans to pursue--whether they appreciate it or not--for a wide variety of reasons.

You're certainly not wrong, but Cassy has a point—in America, you can travel thousands of miles and still be in America. For the average 9-to-5er, America is the world for all intents and purposes, and the language of that insulated world is English. There's little day-to-day need to seriously study other languages, and thus little impetus to do so. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that's going to be the way things are until a critical mass of the population decides that knowing other languages has practical benefits for them.

[Rimmy1a]

Silvernis, on 11 September 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

You're certainly not wrong, but Cassy has a point—in America, you can travel thousands of miles and still be in America.

Well sure, but the Americas are two large continents - you could say "... can travel thousands of kilometers and still be in <insert continental landmass here>".

There's a fair amount of Spanish and Portuguese spoken in the Americas, and using miles is adorably quaint. Come on you xenophobic cowards, there is more to the rest of the word than just "weird food"!

If you're still calling yourselves a melting pot, then grab six months' worth of another language and see how much richer things can be!

If nothing else, it will increase the range of TV programs you can watch, although I'll freely admit most of them are just awful.

[cassy]

Rimmy1a, on 11 September 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Well sure, but the Americas are two large continents - you could say "... can travel thousands of kilometers and still be in <insert continental landmass here>".l.

I said 2,000 miles without a passport meaning within the same country, not simply the same continent.  That is about 3,000 km. With a passport, and not speaking a single word other than English you can travel about 5,000 km.(about the same distance as driving from Lisbon to St Petersberg)
I would not suggest driving through Mexico though, it is extremely violent at the moment.  There is a very real possibility of ending up in a mass grave.

Rimmy1a, on 11 September 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

If you're still calling yourselves a melting pot, then grab six months' worth of another language and see how much richer things can be!

Actually kids are required to take more than 6 months of a foreign language. . .
I can use myself as an example.  
Foreign languages were first optional at 3rd grade, 6 months were mandatory to graduate from 8th grade.  2 years were mandatory in High school, and another year was mandatory in College.
The result was that I spoke German fluently enough to get along in Austria.  When I was in Paris my French was good enough that people assumed I was from Provence.  However, now I don't really know either one anymore, I haven't needed them in decades, and I can't even hear the difference in the regional accents anymore.  In order for most people to retain languages they need to use them regularly.  There are few opportunities for that at the moment.
I have also learned a bit of Hindi and HanGul, but I have lost those as well.  Without a partner it is hard to continue to converse in any language.  My cousins still speak Tagalog, but I never got the hang of it.

Rimmy1a, on 11 September 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

If nothing else, it will increase the range of TV programs you can watch, although I'll freely admit most of them are just awful.

I am guilty of this, I still watch TV and movies in other languages, I just opt for subtitles these days.
It is odd, but I think that Korean tv in some ways reflects a culture that is more similar to what I grew up with, than anything I see on American television.

[Rimmy1a]

cassy, on 11 September 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

I said 2,000 miles without a passport meaning within the same country, not simply the same continent.  That is about 3,000 km. With a passport, and not speaking a single word other than English you can travel about 5,000 km.(about the same distance as driving from Lisbon to St Petersberg)

You'll note that I was replying to Silvernis' post, which is why in my post the quotation made no mention of passports. I was really picking on using the word "America" as a specific country name when it is just a fraction of the actual Americas.

cassy, on 11 September 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

I would not suggest driving through Mexico though, it is extremely violent at the moment.  There is a very real possibility of ending up in a mass grave.

Not really. Yes, I see what passes as news in the US saying that, and there certainly has been an increase in violence, including lethal, in the north, but by the numbers I'm still more likely to get killed traveling to the country immediately to the south of mine, while you doing the same would result in a statistical increase in your chances for daily survival.

cassy, on 11 September 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

The result was that I spoke German fluently enough to get along in Austria.  When I was in Paris my French was good enough that people assumed I was from Provence.  

Presumably not people who were native French speakers - it's a pretty standard compliment from a native to a non-native speaker to say how well they speak. I couldn't tell you how many people I've told that they speak better English than I do, and my French has on occasion been complimented the same way, despite my accent sounding like Tom Waits with a throat infection.

Happily, people just laugh (deservedly so) at my anime-learned Japanese. I am still occasionally reminded of the time - more than twenty years ago now - where I announced to a sizable group "watashi tomago".

[cassy]

Edited, because it is pointless to think of old friends.  They aren't here any more, I am not the same person, and thinking of them only makes me sad.
You can just be right.