21 replies to this topic

[Slein Jinn]

Okay, so Heart of Thorns brought some big changes, and whilst running the old meta still works, it really isn't optimal in comparison to some of the new options.  I'd like to start tackling the question of what the new optimal set up will be.  This is not the new "go-to builds thread"; I'm not writing this to be an accessible resource where you can send new WvW players to find out what to run.  But given time, this will likely give rise to that thread.  In this thread, I'm going to spend a lot of time going into detail about why I've set things up the way I have, how the different builds are intended to interplay, etc., and the builds here will likely be in some degree of flux for a while.  

Disclaimer: I'm looking at this through the lens of zergbusting.  Specifically, I'm looking at well-coordinated groups that need to be able to cope with large engagements both open field and in and around structures.  Some of this probably transfers to GvG contexts, but some may not--I haven't really invested mental energy in that area yet.  Some of this can also be difficult to implement in PuG zergs, because there's a built-in assumption that you can rely on your party to also be building and playing optimally, or at least optimally-ish.  

Disclaimer: All ePower calculations assume you have Spotter, Assassin's Presence, Strength in Numbers (remember your Sharpening Stones!), Fury, 20 Might Stacks (not 25), and full Bloodlust where applicable.  

Disclaimer: I haven't done all the maths on everything yet.  I'll be posting more numbers as I finalise that aspect of things.  But all the gear and rune choices have been made quite intentionally.  For now, you can probably just take my word on the numerical factors--this is what I do--but there may be some changes as I pin down the details.  

Reminder: You can re-stat your existing Ascended gear by combining it with an Exotic Inscription of the desired set, 5 Globs of Ectoplasm, and an Anthology of Heroes (10 Spirit Shards).  

Note: gw2skills.net is weird and displays the stat contribution to Precision from Spotter, but not Toughness from Strength in Numbers or Ferocity from Assassin's Presence.  

Note: The passive condition removal meta was always more of a GvG build that was over-valued in zergbusting in comparison to active condition removal sources, but the combined effects of the nerf to condition reduction foods, the availability of Expertise on gear, and, indirectly, the prevalence of ranged poke prior to committing have pushed the balance further in favour of active condition removal.  

Note: As far as I know, there are no Ascended Rings/Accessories available for the new stat combinations currently, which limits your options somewhat, but based on precedent, we can hope to see them be made available from future living story episodes, or perhaps the long-awaited 500 Jewelrycrafting.  

Note: The new HoT 4-stat gear sets have roughly 9.2% more total stat contribution than standard 3-stat sets.  This is significant and pushes them into some builds you might not expect, but it doesn't make them better in all situations, however, because most of them include secondary stats (Healing Power or Concentration) that aren't useful in all builds, and they also bring less Power--which, if you've been listening to me over the past three years, you know is disproportionately valuable in terms of damage--than the old main-stat Power sets.  

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Guardians have changed the least.  If you hate yourself enough to still be playing without HoT, this is the most viable frontline class for you to be playing right now.  The biggest changes here are with the gear--you probably want to almost completely re-gear your Guardians.  Part of this is because of the advent of Druids, which de-emphasises the value of Healing Power on your Guardians, but mostly this comes down to a new stat--Concentration--out-competing older options.  Guardians' defining function in a frontline group is maintaining key boons--Protection and Stability.  They're also a significant contributor to your condition removal, and an oft-underestimated source of damage.  

Guardians' healing contribution to your sustain is not trivial, but it is strongly overshadowed by Druids now, and itemising for Healing Power is simply less efficient than itemising for Concentration.  The caveat to this is that total combined Boon Duration from all sources cannot exceed 100%, so adding further Concentration beyond 450 falls off sharply.  This is because you can get 20% Boon Duration from Honourable Staff and 50% from your Heralds' Facet of Nature; going over 30% from gear isn't useless, because there will be gaps in those other sources, but it is substantially less valuable, because with optimal play, you should be capping out when it is most important.  

Just like in the past, it remains advantageous to have some variety in your Guardian builds.  You want a mix of Greatswords and Hammers.  You want enough Walls of Reflection, but not so many they become redundant.  You need one Strength in Numbers per party, but not more.  It's great to have some Feel My Wrath if you can work it in.  You want at least one of Shelter or Renewed Focus, but it's not necessary to have both.  Because of all this, it makes sense to run some standard Guardians and some Dragonhunters.  

I've divided up the choices the way I have quite intentionally.  First of all, the standard Guardian has Altruistic Healing, so it has more personal sustain and is thus able to build slightly more damage into the gear.  Partly for this reason, I've put the Greatsword on the standard Guardian; Wings of Resolve on the Dragonhunter also covers for Hammer's lack of a proper leap for engagement.  Renewed Focus goes onto the Dragonhunter, because it's Virtues are more valuable, so that frees up the heal for Receive the Light; the standard Guardian takes Shelter, freeing up the Elite for Feel My Wrath.  Only the Dragonhunter has access to traps, so the standard Guardian takes Wall of Reflection; the fact that the Dragonhunter has a moving projectile destruction on Shield of Courage further supports this.  

Standard Guardian (4-stat Exotic trinkets) | 4719,11506941 ePower | 99,93% Boon Duration
Standard Guardian (Ascended trinkets) | 4925,31376365 ePower | 96,4% Boon Duration
Standard Guardian (Mixed Trinkets) | 4842,78871608 ePower | 99,87% Boon Duration
Dragonhunter (4-stat Exotic trinkets) | 4669,6838505135 ePower | 99,93% Boon Duration
Dragonhunter (Ascended trinkets) | 4852,64341895025 ePower | 96,4% Boon Duration
Dragonhunter (Mixed Trinkets) | 4768,33663177725 ePower | 99,87% Boon Duration

With how central Boon sharing is to your role, you're going to want to be approaching the 450 Concentration needed to cap out at 100% Boon Duration.  It is currently impossible to get more than 396 Concentration without relying on Exotic trinkets, however.  The advantage in total stat contribution from the new 4-stat gear sets is negated by resorting to Exotics, though--the total stats on Exotic 4-stat trinkets and Ascended 3-stat trinkets are nearly identical--which then hits you on stat efficiency, because the 4-stat sets have less Power than the 3-stat sets.  The middle-ground of maxing out Concentration on Ascended weapons, armour, and amulet, and then capping it off with one Exotic Ring is probably the most optimal at the moment, but it does feel a little "dirty" to resort to Exotics for optimisation--we can only hope that we'll be getting Ascended 4-stat trinkets in the near future.  (Before anyone says something--yes, I realise we're squabbling over 3.5% Boon Duration here, and it's not exactly game-breaking, but it's really not any less worthwhile than squeezing out that last 20 ePower in these builds.)

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The biggest change to frontline compositions in my eyes is the introduction of the Druid.  Rangers have long been undervalued in zergbusting comps, but previously, they were limited to very much a niche role.  The new tools in the Druid kit push the class into core frontline viability, however, and moreover, they arguably have the capacity to transform the way the overall comp is run more than any other new addition with HoT.  The most immediately obvious feature of the Druid kit is that it simply provides more straight raw healing than any previous build.  Druid skills have both good base values and very high scaling, many of them with coefficients around 1.0.  A Druid can single-handedly burst heal five targets for upwards of 17k with one four-skill rotation, none of which has a cooldown longer than 24s.  This means that, with a Druid in each party, you can effectively regroup fully without stacking and blasting, just on the strength of Druid heals alone.  

But more than that, Druids have the potential to displace Elementalists in carrying the heavy lifting on core combo fields.  A Druid can bring a 10s duration, 24s cooldown Water Field in Healing Spring as well as a 5s duration, 8s Cooldown Water Field that moves with the Druid in Celestial Avatar Form, which means it should be available around every 15-20 seconds in practise, depending on what's happening in the fight during that time.  The downside is that neither of these fields is as big as Elementalists' Healing Rain, but for coordinated groups, they're plenty big enough to be relied upon--the same size as Geyser (240 units).  You've also got a third 5s Water Field on a 20s cooldown, but it's a tiny line that's simply not practical to try regrouping on.  Furthermore, Druids can also bring an Ice Field on a 24s Cooldown, allowing them to cover both of the key combat combo fields for which groups have traditionally relied upon Elementalists.  

And on top of all that, they've also got a ton of CC to bring to bear.  The Druid basically has two Entangles--Primal Echoes, Ancient Seeds, and the Hydromancy Sigil interplay to make weapon swapping to staff effectively a 240 radius Entangle.  You've also got two more AoE Dazes, another AoE Immobilise, a pulsing Chill on the aforementioned Ice Field, a pulsing AoE Cripple and Slow with a delayed Immobilise, and an AoE Knockback/Pull.  Nothing is better than a Druid at disrupting formations and punishing players who get caught out of position.  

So with all that utility, the question becomes how much damage do you try to build into the Druid's kit?  It's entirely possible to go full Cleric's with Runes of the Druid and just all-in on the support side, and with such great Healing Power coefficients on your skills, you're well-rewarded for doing so.  But the Druid does have the potential to do quite reasonable damage; Maul especially is an incredibly hard-hitting ability, and the Greatsword and Staff both cleave fairly well in general.  You're also forced to choose three utilities from four--Frost Trap, Glyph of Equality, Glyph of the Tides, and Glyph of Alignment.  Muddy Terrain--the staple of the old midline Ranger--is still serviceable, too, but probably not optimal.  The choice may ultimately depend on the rest of the comp--chiefly how much you decide to continue relying on Staff Elementalists--but you may want to just take Glyphs of Equality and Alignment on everyone with a mix of Glyph of the Tides and Frost Trap on the remaining Druids.  Or you may decide that the Reapers have enough Ice Fields and forego Frost Trap entirely.  

Healing-focused | 3449,9122558 ePower | 4762,8 eHealing (5347,8 with Runes of the Druid passive)
Balanced (Druid) | 4355,5664405925 ePower | 3800,6 eHealing (4320,6 with Runes of the Druid passive)
Balanced (Durability) | 4472,70172867875 ePower | 3681,64 eHealing
Balanced (Scrapper) | 4781,10419616375 ePower | 3662,44 eHealing
Offensive | 5242,28619047175 ePower | 3432,04 eHealing
I've added 5% Critical Chance for Hunter's Tactics; in practise, this may be a little on the low side, but it's good enough I think.  
I've taken the values for Healing Spring + Ancestral Grace + 1x Blast Finisher on a Water Field + Lunar Impact + Glyph of Alignment (including the Seed of Life passive) + 1x Sigil of Renewal (where applicable), then divided by 5, and called that an "eHealing" value.  It's pretty arbitrary, but I think it's a decent rough heuristic to see how each build affects your actual ability to pump out healing; I was actually shocked at how well it inversely tracked ePower.  I've counted the Sigil of Benevolence stacks (where applicable), but be aware that this bonus doesn't affect the Druid himself.  

Note that a pretty significant portion of the swings in all those values rests in the "secondary" details--Runes and Sigils--rather than the core gear.  Tweaking these aspects lets you pretty easily iterate builds that fall in between the three reference points I've given you here.  Swapping between stacking Bloodlust or Benevolence has a big impact, as does swapping between Force or Renewal.  The Rune choices are a bit more complex, as they're also embedded in the base stats of the builds, but they're still pretty changeable.  Scrapper, Druid, and Durability Runes are all relatively over-statted compared to most rune sets, which is why you see lots of them in this thread.  The 7% damage reduction from Scrapper Runes is equivalent to roughly 200 Toughness against targets within 600 range on these builds, which makes it work very well in more offensive configurations.  Durability Runes look less efficient overall than Druid Runes in these builds, as you're getting little to no value out of the Boon Duration, but they're still not far behind, and they're clearly best-in-slot for roaming/havoc Druid builds, which do use the Boon Duration quite well, so I've included the Durability build for people who need an all-rounder option.  

Note also that, whilst Celestial gear is unequivocally not optimal in terms of damage or healing (5001,233352675 ePower; 3329,36 eHealing), it is close enough if you've got a set of Ascended Celestial gear sitting around on an Engineer or whatever and want to experiment with Druid before committing to re-gearing.  Moreover, Celestial is, annoyingly, the only set in the game that has Power, Healing Power, and Vitality together.  Rangers' base Health isn't terrible--I can say from experience that it is playable at base Vitality--but it is a little lower than I usually like for frontliners, so I've taken a bit of Celestial in these builds to add Vitality.  

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Revenants are a new beast entirely.  On their most basic level, I guess you could say they're a standard midline destroyer--the like-for-like upgrade to Phalanx Strength Warriors--but really they're quite a bit more complex than that.  In addition to the boon sharing from Legendary Dragon Stance, Legendary Dwarf Stance gives you unparalleled push power to get through chokes with Rite of the Great Dwarf and Vengeful Hammers.  A key portion of your kit also rests with Facet of Nature, which is a massive boost to your Guardians.  

As destroyers, the old maxim of "build as much defense as needed to stay alive but as much damage as you can survive building" still holds up to a point, but the massive boon sharing offered by Legendary Dragon Stance means you're going to be wanting plenty of Concentration, too.  You've got 15% passive Boon Duration from Herald traits, and Facet of Nature can give you a further 50%, leaving 35% Boon Duration--or 525 Concentration--to be made up with gear to reach the cap.  Despite the fact that defensive rune sets are typically inefficient, because they cost you Power in comparison to bulking up with Soldier gear or the like, Runes of Durability come out solidly ahead of the other options here, because they're just providing so much more total stat contribution than any competitor.   They're effectively providing 600 in total stats (175 Toughness, 125 Vitality, and 20% Boon Duration is 300 Concentration); nothing else comes anywhere close.  Note: In sPvP, Runes of Durability are currently providing 25% Boon Duration rather than the listed 20%.  I can't confirm whether this is also true in WvW.  I also can't confirm whether the effective value or the tooltip is working as intended.  The build editor is displaying 20%, and I've also opted to play it safe with the conservative value.  

Note also that I'm building the Herald a bit less tanky, because you've got a ton of flat damage reduction in your kit.  Your Close Quarters and Determined Resolution traits and your Vengeful Hammers and Rite of the Great Dwarf skills all give significant amounts of flat damage reduction.  Focused Siphoning also provides a deceptively significant amount of sustain.  Furthermore, I've gone with Swift Termination for now, but you can pick up Assassin's Annihilation instead for even more personal sustain.  Don't let the 2754 Armour fool you; this is arguably the tankiest of all the builds here.  When below 75% Health, damage from sources within 360 units of you is banging into the equivalent of 3332,34 Armour, and that's without your actives.  

The trait choices here are mostly pretty straightforward, but there are a couple of places with some room for variation.  In Retribution, Versed in Stone and Close Quarters are way too good to even consider dropping, but Retaliatory Evasion could potentially give way to Dwarven Battle Training; Retaliation is a really nice boon in the frontline, but being less affected by Weakness is a pretty nice perk, too.  I've taken Malicious Reprisal for the Tier 1 in Devastation, not because it's valuable, but simply because you want the line, and it's the only trait in that tier that actually does anything for a Hammer+Staff build.  Swift Termination is a huge damage trait, but Assassin's Annihilation can give you a ton of sustain--we're talking as much as on the order of 65-70% of a Warrior's Healing Signet in practice; I think the damage fits the needs of the build better from the two excellent options, though.  I've gone ahead and slotted Radiant Revival for the Tier 1 in Herald, especially with Battle Standards so much less prevalent--it'll basically secure a res under cleave for free--but you'd get really good value out of Hardening Persistence, too, as the clear majority of your Energy should be getting spent on upkeep skills, anyway.  Finally, for the Tier 3 in Herald, I've taken Elder's Force, which is a significant source of damage; note that the proc from Soothing Bastion roots you in place, so it could sometimes do more harm than good in this context.  

Herald - 5969,06837436 ePower base | 8583,9978477996288 ePower peak* | 7362,0101702006496 ePower average
*With six boons against a target under 50% Health & affected by Vulnerability.

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The best way to utilise Necromancers right now is probably the most open question in my eyes.  There's no reason you can't still run them as glassy backliners, and in contexts like GvG, that may well remain the most effective option, but the advent of Reaper makes bringing your Necromancers into the frontline an extremely attractive option.  They can be built tanky enough to function as destroyers whilst still contributing a lot of damage, both in terms of sustained pressure and burst.  Frontline positioning allows you to flesh out your arsenal with Shouts, too, giving you additional boon removal, a more consistent Elite, and more sustain.  

You obviously have to take Reaper, and Blood Magic is also pretty core, buffing your Wells considerably, giving you a lot of personal sustain, and giving you quite a valuable party aura.  Vampiric and Vampiric Presence may not sound like much at first glance, but they've got no internal cooldowns, so when you're cleaving 3-5 targets on every swing, they add up to a major source of sustain.  I've slotted Blood Bond as the Tier I in Blood Magic for the bit of extra personal sustain, but all of the options in this slot are somewhat underwhelming; you could just as easily take Ritual of Life if your team is doing a lot of stack ressing in-combat.  

For your third trait line, you've got a plethora of options.  Each of the remaining trait lines contribute something of substantial value to your build, but none of them offer anything truly build-defining.  I'm going to reserve judgement on which is ultimately the best option for the time being.  My first impression just from looking at them on paper would be to say that Spite and Death Magic are good options for running in PuG zergs, each giving you something to compensate for what you can't rely on un-organised teammates to provide.  But for coordinated groups, it seems that Curses and Soul Reaping are more optimal.  Soul Reaping has the most punch for blob stomping, and Path of Corruption in Curses can help you get on top of other organised groups.  But these aren't questions of mere maths, and it's always hard to draw definitive conclusions about the relative values of intangibles on paper, so I look forward to hearing the reports from the field on how you guys feel each line works out in practise.  

Spite - 5996,018001435 ePower | 7195,221601722 ePower vs. <50%
Close to Death is huge as a pure damage ability, and Spiteful Renewal actually contributes quite decently to your personal sustain.  You've got quite a lot of personal Might stacking, which would be really nice in PuG groups, but--though still not trivial--it shouldn't be a huge factor in the comp we're proposing here, as you'll have so much Might from party sources.  I've slotted Rending Shroud for the Tier II trait mostly just for some consistent condi diversity to help cover the soft CC applications, but note that it also synergies with Focused Siphoning for your Revenants; you could take Chill of Death in its place for the small chance it might randomly down someone--neither trait here has a large impact.  

Soul Reaping - 8048,5180437855375 ePower in Shroud | 5814,714150247275 ePower out of Shroud
You're getting a bit better upkeep on Shroud, and a bit of cooldown reduction for your Shroud skills, but mostly you're looking to this line for Death Perception.  It's obviously the biggest boost you can give to your Shroud skills' damage, but note also that you can drop Wells, then immediately enter Shroud to massively augment your Well bombs, too.  Note that, whilst the Captain's gear build produces the highest ePower in other contexts, it'll leave a lot of redundant Critical Chance (20.52%); any Critical Chance in excess of 22.86% will be wasted with Spotter, Fury, and Death Perception all in effect.  The build I've taken here costs you around 6% ePower out of Shroud in order to maximise your top-end potential for bombs, as that's what plays to the core of why you'd choose Soul Reaping over the alternatives.  Of the four options, the Soul Reaping line has the highest potential to make an impact, but also the most inconsistent value; I can't really maths-craft an answer on how valuable it will prove in practise--we need to playtest how reliably you can sustain Shroud in frontline engagements to utilise Death Perception.  (Note: I've included the 5% from Strength of Undeath in the ePower for Shroud to better represent your potential for bombs; out of Shroud, I've assumed you'll sustain the bonus two thirds of the time.)

Death Magic - 6341,6844645 ePower in Shroud | 6009,0756616 ePower out of Shroud
You're getting some decent survivability here.  You should be able to keep Corrupter's Fervor stacked reliably in combat, you're gaining even more Toughness in Shroud, and you've got a pretty significant source of personal Protection.  (I've factored in both of these sources of Toughness on your Sharpening Stones and Deadly Strength.)  I've slotted Shrouded Removal for the Tier I trait, which gives you some personal condition removal that the build otherwise lacks, but if you trust your Guardians enough, you could bulk up slightly more with Putrid Defense instead, especially when fighting disorganised groups that aren't removing your group's conditions as efficiently as they should.  The damage contribution from Deadly Strength is also fairly considerable.  

Curses - 6210,269612673 ePower
This is potentially the best option for augmenting your overall role in the comp, as--assuming they interact as you'd expect; I haven't playtested it--Path of Corruption should be a massive boost to your boon stripping potential when coupled with Death's Charge.  Beyond that, you're getting a fair bit of Weakness application, some raw Critical Chance from Target the Weak (note: I've assumed an average of three conditions for 6%; this pushes an additional piece of Cavalier's into the build) and a huge personal Fury source, which is never trivial, but would be more impactful in PuG situations.  

Note that this meta is pushing Power and Precision numbers to the point where Cavalier's actually has a place in Necromancer builds for the first time, which is kind of interesting.  Historically, Cavalier's has been a dominated option in comparison to Knight's and Soldier's.  I doubt it'll make an appearance on any other classes, still, though, as Necromancers are always a bit of a unique animal with respect to gear optimisation because of the combination of having the highest base Health and the lowest base Armour.  

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So the way I see it, you'll want to have one standard Guardian, one Dragonhunter, one Druid, and one Herald in every frontline party.  Your fifth can be anything; you'll probably want mostly Reapers, but you might decide to take a Battle Standard or two, a utility Mesmer, or another Revenant.  

Your push power is insane compared to the old comps.  You can push with -50% damage reduction from a Herald's RIte of the Great Dwarf, behind a Dragonhunter's Shield of Courage, on top of a Druid's Rejuvenating Tides.  Everything in the comp has, at minimum, a 600 range leap to engage with.  You've got great uptimes on all key boons, lots of sustain, lots of CC, and lots of pressure.  

Maybe the most interesting thing from a zergbusting standpoint here is that you have the potential to fulfil all the critical functions without running any true glassy backliners, which can really transform your ability to sustain through extended engagements inside structures and such, because you can get through chokes as one unit and fight effectively in close quarters.  You may still want to run a distinct frontline and backline--I think it's too early to say--but the range of possibilities here is pretty interesting regardless.

[Slein Jinn]

Note: This is just a placeholder for the moment.  I'll expand this post in due time.  

So if the above five builds are the core of a front line, the following builds are supporting cast.  

Gun Flame Berserker
Aura Share Tempest
Utility Mesmer

[Slein Jinn]

I've given this another couple of passes, adding a lot more maths and refining some of the details.  

Also, a bunch of likes and zero comments is a bit creepy.  Quit being creepy stalkers and post your feedback!

[UltraEM]

Well, I can say that the Reaper Spite build is pretty much the same as the Reaper build I made when I first got access to it, which is nice. I haven't tried it out in WvW yet though and my gear is still mostly Knight's. I'll try that out as well as the Standard Guardian (I don't like using hammer for some reason) build the next time I go on a raid. I don't have a Druid yet and my Revenant isn't 80 yet, so I can't comment there.

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 04 December 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

I've given this another couple of passes, adding a lot more maths and refining some of the details.  

Also, a bunch of likes and zero comments is a bit creepy.  Quit being creepy stalkers and post your feedback!

We're not all creepers. I think.

It just means we all really appreciate the time and effort you put into this, but are maybe too ignorant to provide a useful comment at this point. That's true of me, at least. Our composition is still in flux. However, your post is really a valuable resource, so it was kinda of rude of me to drop a like and seemingly disappear. Should've at least thanked you. So, thank you, Slein!

I'll pose a question. You noted that your Herald was a bit less tanky because of the damage reduction available to the class. How seriously do you think I'm gimping my frontline if I replace the zerker/soldier gear with some combination of marauder/knight? I'd keep the commander's pieces for the boon duration, obviously. Stats would shake out something like this (your original stats listed first):

Power -  2447 vs 2398
Armor -  2759 vs 2918
Vitality - 1170 vs 1233
Crit % - 50.81 vs 47.81
Crit dmg - 187.8% vs 181.07%

Boon duration is the same on both. No good? Negligible?

[Slein Jinn]

UltraEM, on 06 December 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Well, I can say that the Reaper Spite build is pretty much the same as the Reaper build I made when I first got access to it, which is nice. I haven't tried it out in WvW yet though and my gear is still mostly Knight's. I'll try that out as well as the Standard Guardian (I don't like using hammer for some reason) build the next time I go on a raid. I don't have a Druid yet and my Revenant isn't 80 yet, so I can't comment there.

I'm pretty torn on which trait line to run.  Spite is almost entirely for Close to Death, which makes me tend to think it's probably unlikely to be the best in a coordinated frontline context.  But Close to Death is a really great trait.  Also, it might be better in PuG situations, since you won't be able to rely on your party for Might stacks as consistently, and Spite gives you an abundance of Might.  But Soul Reaping can give you higher damage for bombs even if it's a bit less steady pressure, the defense from Death Magic is really substantial, and the boon stripping from Curses contributes the most to your core role.  I look forward to getting to play with the different options and to hearing other peoples' experiences with them.  

Note: Apparently I fucked up an edit somewhere along the way, and all the Reaper builds are pointing to the Crusader's build for some reason.  Going back and fixing it now.  That'll be in a state of flux for a couple days probably.  Giving a lecture at the British Council centre here on Wednesday, so I've got a lot on my plate this week.  

Blackthorn, on 06 December 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

We're not all creepers. I think.

It just means we all really appreciate the time and effort you put into this, but are maybe too ignorant to provide a useful comment at this point. That's true of me, at least. Our composition is still in flux. However, your post is really a valuable resource, so it was kinda of rude of me to drop a like and seemingly disappear. Should've at least thanked you. So, thank you, Slein!

Sure thing.  With how I choose to spend my game-time these days, it's my chief contribution to the server community at this point.  

Quote

I'll pose a question. You noted that your Herald was a bit less tanky because of the damage reduction available to the class. How seriously do you think I'm gimping my frontline if I replace the zerker/soldier gear with some combination of marauder/knight? I'd keep the commander's pieces for the boon duration, obviously. Stats would shake out something like this (your original stats listed first):

Power -  2447 vs 2398
Armor -  2759 vs 2918
Vitality - 1170 vs 1233
Crit % - 50.81 vs 47.81
Crit dmg - 187.8% vs 181.07%

Boon duration is the same on both. No good? Negligible?

It would help to see it in a build editor--for one, it's just the way I'm used to looking at the stats, and it lets me take care of the Might and Bloodlust automatically, but it also lets me play with it and see if it can be made more efficient by rearranging the slots or whatever.  But taking your stats at face value, and assuming you're keeping my Sigils... you're looking at 5477.605495575 ePower under the same constraints.  So that's substantially--11,63%--less than my Durability rune build.  (That's trading off against 5,65% more defensive stats.)  In general, the only less efficient set for adding defense to a build than Knight's is Cavalier's.  Basically, when you're primarily optimising for offense, taking sets with a main stat that is defensive costs you more stats.  You're compensating for that somewhat by pairing it with Marauder, which has more total stat contribution, but Marauder is still less Power than Soldier or Berserker.  You've also got a further problem with a lack of available ascended Trinkets in Commander's/Marauder's stats, which hinders the efficiency further, as you certainly don't need that much Knight's, so you're going to be taking some exotics.

In general, if you want to add Toughness without adding Vitality, Captain's stats are the most efficient way to do it, and for Necros in particular--with their highest base Health and lowest base Armour--that can be desirable.  (Seriously, Necros are a pain in the ass with this stuff; fuck them and their wonky base stats!)  But in this build, if you're going to bulk it up, you'd probably want more Vitality as much as you'd want more Toughness; 17k Health is basically my minimum.  So if anything, I'd add Marauders straight up in place of Berserker's, keep the Soldier's as-is, and forego Knight's.  

I also just don't think it's really necessary to go for that extra tankiness, unless you're also going to bulk up the Druids and Guardians more than I have in my builds.  You have more personal defense and sustain in your kit than the rest of your frontline does, so you really should be fine with lower defensive stats than they have, especially considering you're close to a midliner in role, so you should be able to drop back a pace or two if you feel like you're getting pressured out.

[Blackthorn]

Thanks! In a way, I realize that my question is sort of irrelevant to me, based on the gear I have available; I won't be able to make a set of ascended heavy armor any time soon. Realistically, I think I could manage this fairly quick. It's pretty close to yours in terms of the resulting stats. I had to bump up the sharpening stones to the potent variety to make up some of the power loss. I'm pretty flexible as far as the trinkets and weapons go, though.

[Slein Jinn]

That looks pretty serviceable.  Just get yourself a Bloodlust Sigil--it contributes way more than an Air Sigil would in this context.  Also, remember, if you've got some heavy armour from pre-HoT, you can re-stat it pretty cheaply (see OP).

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 06 December 2015 - 11:30 PM, said:

That looks pretty serviceable.  Just get yourself a Bloodlust Sigil--it contributes way more than an Air Sigil would in this context.  Also, remember, if you've got some heavy armour from pre-HoT, you can re-stat it pretty cheaply (see OP).

I've never had any heavy armor, sad life. I have to work on armorsmithing just to make the Commander's set (and, I can't even tell you how hard it was to get the recipe from the Dragon Stand merchant with the Mac client being as broke as it is right now). Got it up to 228 last night, will hopefully finish the rest today or tomorrow.

On the sigil, I just kind of stuck that in there as a serviceable replacement for the Bloodlust sigil at the moment. I'd definitely go with Bloodlust if I were using this strictly for WvW, but it'll also (hopefully) see a fair bit of use in scrims/GvGs, where people get bitchy if you use stacking sigils. So, I want to try and pick something that will work in both contexts, even if a bit sub-optimal one of them.

[Slein Jinn]

Well not having Bloodlust isn't just sub-optimal, it's WAY sub-optimal.  Sigil of Air isn't a remotely serviceable replacement.  Sigil of Bloodlust is the highest DPS sigil in the game by far, and Sigil of Air does relatively little in a frontline setting.  If you can't afford a second weapon to carry around, just clear your stacks between rounds by un-equipping, or at least get something like a Sigil of Accuracy or something.

[Azure]

Slein Jinn, on 04 December 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

I've given this another couple of passes, adding a lot more maths and refining some of the details.  

Also, a bunch of likes and zero comments is a bit creepy.  Quit being creepy stalkers and post your feedback!

I just really liked the topic and am wondering what WvW is like post-HoT. I don't have much to add to the conversation since I haven't been in WvW in months and don't plan on getting back in until I am a bit further into the PvE game.

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 07 December 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

Well not having Bloodlust isn't just sub-optimal, it's WAY sub-optimal.  Sigil of Air isn't a remotely serviceable replacement.  Sigil of Bloodlust is the highest DPS sigil in the game by far, and Sigil of Air does relatively little in a frontline setting.  If you can't afford a second weapon to carry around, just clear your stacks between rounds by un-equipping, or at least get something like a Sigil of Accuracy or something.

I don't know that we'd use this build as part of smaller comps, but supposing we did, my concern is if you're only getting 5 or 10 Bloodlust stacks per round, is it worth it? Or, I guess the better question is, are you gimping your team by NOT taking something else? Or is it silly to worry about such a specific scenerio that may never come to pass? These are the questions ...

[Slein Jinn]

In general, at 10 stacks, it's good, and around 15 stacks it's becoming best-in-slot.  

In an organised WvW group, I'd generally want to see Bloodlust on everyone.  It's just too good.  For roaming shit, it's less clear, because it's harder to keep it stacked, and it's harder to quantify its value compared to things like Air+Fire/Blood or Hydromancy+Leeching in that context--it's always the highest DPS, but optimising purely for DPS, as opposed to burst or utility, is less of a priority when you're concerned with focusing individual targets.  But when you're in settings where you're cleaving 3-5 targets, nothing else comes remotely close to Force+Bloodlust.

As for smaller comps, you wouldn't want to be running Hammer on your Revenants, anyway, though.  Staff + Sword/Shield for Shiro Power, or Mace/Axe + Sword/Shield for Mallyx hybrid.

[cassy]

Do you have any interest in talking about the New Ele builds?
I think I broke mine when I got some freebie Ascended Items, and I want to make sure I opt for the right spec when I throw the in the Mystic toilet . . .

[Biff Rangoon]

Just wanted to give a shout out to Slein for his efforts as Ehmry's #1 theorycrafter. It's not just because he takes the time to run the numbers and figure out the angles, it's that he shares the results with us all too. Thanks Slein!

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

[Slein Jinn]

UPDATE: The Necromancer section is in pretty good shape for now.  I might need to re-tweak the Curses build a little bit, but I'm going to let that section ride for a bit.  This weekend I'll probably get the maths done on the Guardian builds and maybe try to finalise the Druid section.

cassy, on 08 December 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Do you have any interest in talking about the New Ele builds?
I think I broke mine when I got some freebie Ascended Items, and I want to make sure I opt for the right spec when I throw the in the Mystic toilet . . .

I'll get to everything eventually.  Glassy backline Elementalist builds probably haven't changed--Tempest isn't really ideally suited to that setting, but I guess you could run the Tempest line as a like-for-like replacement for Arcane and just keep using Cantrips.  You can run more of a midline Aura share build, but I don't think it's really optimal in comparison with the above builds.

[Maxxalot]

Can't believe I missed this thread, but thank you for making it! Getting some really interesting ideas from it, so the effort is appreciated. I really like a lot of the options that have now opened up for group compositions, considering it's been the same for a long time now. I believe the only thing that may not be optimal here are some of the ideas behind guardian.

  Though it can definitely depend on a group's playstyle, not slotting both shelter and renewed focus is generally an unnecessarily risky thing to do. "Receive the Light" is certainly usable, but dropping an invuln and virtue refresh for quickness in the elite slot seems to be a fairly negative trade. This combined with an armor number as low as 2800 results in your guardian being able to almost ever apply any aggressive melee pressure. The sustain you get from other sources is nice, but with the current meta revolving around extremely heavy spike damage, you are very likely to go down where you could have survived if you had that invuln(also why virtually all warrs take double endure pain now). And if you are unable to be aggressive, then there's really no point of taking "Feel my Wrath" in the first place. tldr; the sustain is simply not high enough to combat the damage you will take unless you just never apply melee pressure, in which case you may as well not have frontliners anyway.

That being said,  think you hit it pretty damn well with dragonhunter. The combination of having a single target pull, healing leap, and moving projectile destroying wall are fantastic. Running one dragonhunter and one standard guardian is exactly what we've been trying in EB and the results so far are quite positive.

Would definitely love to see what you think about tempest(though seemingly already asked). Though I don't expect many groups to stop running standard staff eles, would be interesting to see some ideas!

[Slein Jinn]

Well, as I've said, I haven't even begun to optimise the Guardian gear yet, but it's as near as makes no difference 2.9k, not 2.8k, and that's before Strength in Numbers, so it's well over 3k in practise.  And that's on a build with quite a bit of added personal sustain.  If that's not tanky enough for your Guardians, then none of the builds are tanky enough, because having Guardians that are massively more tanky than the rest of the builds wouldn't really achieve much.  The whole concept here is that all 5 of these builds move together very tightly, playing off all the synergy between them.  

I think you're underestimating just how many survival and sustain tools are in this party comp, though.  You've got basically unlimited projectile destruction.  You're fighting on top of Water Fields virtually the entire time.  The Druid is pumping out direct healing like nothing GW2 has ever seen before.  You've got enough Protection to keep 100% uptime even through a fair bit of boon stripping.  And you've got Rite of the Great Dwarf and Shield of Courage (which is actually directional invulnerability for everyone in the radius; not just projectile destruction) to get you through periods of heavy pressure.  That is a lot more staying power than the pre-HoT comps had.  

Two invulnerabilities on your Guardians is nice, but none of the other builds have anything close to that, so if your Guardians are pressured enough to need it, then the rest of the comp is probably dead.  Those extra shouts aren't trivial, either.  Feel My Wrath is the only real source of Quickness in the whole comp, and not only does it make a huge difference--especially on the Reapers and the Revenants--when committing for a burn, but it can really help your Druid get off clutch heals, too.  The upside on Receive the Light is smaller than for Feel My Wrath, but the opportunity cost is lower, too; you might as well take it; being the only one in the comp with double invulnerabilities just means you're the last one standing in a wipe.  

As for Elementalists, I'm honestly not sure I'd run them at all right now in an optimal comp.  If [Seek] were running today and I was putting together a 15-20 man comp for blob smashing, I'd probably just stack parties of the above builds with one utility Mesmer (something along THESE lines) in place of one Reaper.  Even pre-HoT, we were pretty successfully experimenting with scaling back on Elementalist numbers to pick up some midline Rangers; now that the upside to Druid is so much higher than it was on Ranger previously, you really can get by without Elementalists.  You certainly can still run backline Elementalists, but if you run them tanky enough to push chokes with the frontline, they're basically just combo field bots with no significant damage, and if you run them glassy enough to do decent damage, their inability to take pressure significantly constrains your positioning.  Aura Share Tempest builds (something roughly like THIS are pretty interesting and do have some merits, but I'm not sure I can see them out-competing Reaper for a spot in these comps--maybe, though.

[Slein Jinn]

UPDATE: The maths is all finished for the Reaper and Revenant builds, and I'm pretty happy with the state of both of them for the moment.  The "which trait line" question for Reaper remains open, but I'm going to leave it alone for now until some people actually start playing with the builds and commenting on it.

[Slein Jinn]

UPDATE: The Druid builds have been optimised.  I'll probably clean up Guardian/Dragonhunter tomorrow.  Hopefully everything in the Druid section is coherent, because this dragged on about 6 hours past my bedtime.