53 replies to this topic

[Aduah]

I was interested in some opinions of runes and sigils for a condi engineer. Over the last two weeks I have been looking at length at How best to build my engi for WvW.

Originally (well in PvE) I tended to lean towards a tanky build. PVT, with flame thrower. Traits leaning towards fire, (burning duration, juggernaut, things that gave might with flame thrower. I noticed the survivability in PvP/WvW was quite a bit lower than desired, even with all the vitality I had.

After talking with Rimmy, he suggested I try condition. So I've been playing around with traits to compliment using bombs instead of flame thrower. Switched from Rifle to Dual Pistol. Overall giving it a whirl. Originally before switching I was planning on going with rabid armour for my ascended.

Overall I still think this is a good choice, ConDmg/Precision/Toughness. It does make me a little nervous though considering I'd have quite a bit less Vitality. I also feel like I don't hit as hard. However if my conditions are doing DPS, I just need to stay alive longer than the other guy.

So to my main point.

I was considering runes. Originally I was going to throw My Travelers Runes in my armour and be done with it (I've had them since before they went through the roof in price).

Then Rimmy suggested Runes of Perplexity. Which do not look to bad. But then I was looking through the runes and Runes of the nightmare do not look bad, with Condition duration and condition dmg.

Also I haven't quite made any move towards any particular sigils.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[Quippi]

Perplexity runes are good for the confusion stacking between that static shot and pry bar it's confusion city.

You can also use runes of the undead for more condition damage, it pairs well with rabid gear. I don't bother with duration since the never seem to tick fully in  wvw anyways.
I use a torment sigil and bursting. Torment is great since it adds another condition they have to cleanse and a bit more damage never hurts. Bursting is just what i have from pve it's great when you have all the stack.

That's just what i use I'm not great at wvw or anything but i get by nicely. I run grenades instead of bombs.

(Sorry for any typos I'm on a tablet.)

[Aduah]

I use Bombs and grenades at the moment. You really think Condi Duration is useless in WvW? Hmmm... Ill have to give it more thought then.

[Grav]

I don't play my engi as often as I used to, but I used to run rabid armor with runes of the undead, running dual pistols mainly but swapping to grenades now and then.  Prefix on the weapons is giver's for the condi duration, sigils are corruption and earth.

[Crosius]

Condie duration is less advisable than condie damage, as people have cleanses galore when running in WvW, so you want to deal as much damage as you can in the time you have available. Condie duration is "ok" to have with conditions like Confusion, but other than that focus moreso towards condie damage rather than duration.

[Slein Jinn]

There are lots of viable ways to build an Engineer for roaming/havocing/sPvP.  Could you please post a link to what you run now?  (If you need an editor, HERE is the best one.)  

Also, try to be a little more specific about what you want the build to do, and also about your resources.  Are you wanting a spec for winning 1v1's and soloing camps, or more for running in a havoc group?  What can you recycle from the builds you run in other contexts (you were asking about Engineer builds for larger-scale WvW not so long ago; have you been using the Elixir build I posted?).  How willing are you to carry multiple gear sets and retrait when you change what you're doing?  

It's obviously not a perfect equivalence, but sPvP can be a good place to look for ideas about small-man WvW, as well; you can spectate on sPvP matches and see everything--the player's build, what skills they use and when, etc.--and you can easily test out builds in hotjoins or in the dueling rooms.  

I'll put together a couple of builds for you when I've got a bit of time, but having a bit more information would help me to give you better feedback, especially given how much diversity is possible with Engineers.  I will say that, while Condi is generally the meta for small-man stuff right now, Engineer Power builds can still be very viable, so depending on your resources, that might be preferable for you because it overlaps with large-scale WvW and PvE better.  We can look at both Condi and Power builds, though.

[Aduah]

When I have a chance here in a bit, I will post how my build is currently.

[Slein Jinn]

I've just finished putting together a few build options for you, but I'm going to wait to post them until you finish your post so that I can tailor the explanations a little more personally.

[Quippi]

I've tried running with bombs and grenades together but I find that I miss my toolkit for the block, pull, the underestimated cripple and prybar or rocket boots for the escape/gapcloser/blast finisher.

The lack of condition duration is the reason crosius mentioned.

The best thing to do is play around and see what you are comfortable with. I know a lot of people do p/p but I like p/s. Tailor your engineer to you!

[Aduah]

http://gw2skills.net...BLYm4ueAiAQ3C-w

This CURRENTLY what I am wearing. This by no means at all is my forever armor. This is just what I am wearing until I get my ascended together.

As to you question Jin, I don't mind carrying around multiple sets of armor, as I already carry around alot of junk. But as it stands I still have to make my first set of good ascended armor.

My weapons have no sigils in them, my Armour just has engineer runes in them because i put them in last night because they were cheap, and if i didn't like them they didn't cost me that much in the 1st place.

[Slein Jinn]

Well, you never really answered me about what else you run and what exactly you want the build to do, but here goes...

Operating on what assumptions I can make from other things you've said, what I'm going to recommend for you is a Static Discharge-centred Power build.  This will utilise a lot of gear you've already got and maximise overlap with the Engineer build I've recommended for larger-scale WvW, as well as overlapping far better than a condition build would with what you'd be running in PvE.  

2/6/0/0/6
This build will also bring you back to your familiar Rifle.  It is a very bursty damage spec with a reasonable amount of CC.  I've slotted Sigils of Battle and Energy, because on-swap Sigils are crazy strong for Engineers, and they'll give you a nice boost to both burst and survivability respectively, but Doom, Intelligence, and Strength are all viable options here as well, as are the old standbys of Fire (or Air if you're focused on 1v1's over teamfights; you didn't specify) and Force.  Sigil of Doom in particular is a great tool if you can use it to neuter the opponent's heal, but in a Power build, it's not so strong otherwise.  The more Soldier gear you opt to run over Berserker, the more valuable you'll find Sigil of Intelligence to be.  Runes of Strength are an obvious choice in any Power build with decent access to Might, and this build certainly fits, but Runes of Melandru are also a great option, especially given this build's lack of stunbreaks and condition removal.  Runes of the Privateer are also a great--and very inexpensive--option for roaming builds; the Tropical Bird is quite strong, and they've got much of the damage offered by Strength Runes.  

As with any Power build, you can adjust the balance of Soldier to Zerker gear in either direction to suit your comfort level, but for roaming, you're going to want to go fairly glassy.  I've defaulted to 2200 Armour, but you can find whatever balance works for you.  Like I said, do go fairly glassy, but you'll probably start out a little less glassy in the beginning, and end up running full glass, or close to it, as a roamer when you're more comfortable in the build.  

Also worth mentioning is that, with the change from raw Crit Damage to Ferocity, it no longer really matters which pieces you run as Soldier's vs. Berserker's (which is a pity for build theory obsessives like me, as it takes away one avenue for optimisation, but it's good for the general public I suppose).  If you opt for a Power build, I would make the armour slots all Berserker, and use trinkets/weapons to mix in whatever amounts of Soldier gear, that way you can only have to invest in one set of Runes of Strength and keep them in all your builds (they're going to be best-in-slot for large-scale WvW and PvE builds for you).  

It's hard not to take Healing Turret for the short cooldown heal, which also gives you another great burst skill in Detonating it, and Detonation can in turn blast a Water Field.  Supply Crate is the natural choice of Elite.  Tool Kit is a must-have, with a much stronger auto-attack than Rifle (note the 1/2s vs. 3/4s cast times), some great utility/CC, and a big burst skill in Pry Bar.  Note that Magnet is unblockable, so you can really catch Axe/Shield Warriors and such with it.  Rifle Turret is mostly there for Surprise Shot, but when you have the opportunity, it's worth dropping the turret just to Detonate it on someone.  There are plenty of situational options for the third Utility, but Personal Battering Ram is a natural default choice, with a high-damage, low-cooldown Tool Belt skill on top of another decent damage/CC skill on the Utility bar itself.  Other options you will likely utilise include Utility Goggles, Rocket Boots, and Slick Shoes.  Grenades can also be worthwhile in team fights, even in a Power build.  

The key to this build is the Static Discharge trait (Tools II) from which it takes its name.  You've got some flexibility in what you do with the rest of the traits.  Even though the key skill in Tools is only an Adept, you still want to go the full 30-point investment for the cooldown reduction and Ferocity, and you do have some very decent other traits to pick up along the way.  I've slotted Power Wrench and Adrenal Implants, which are the natural default choices, but Speedy Kits is a very strong alternative to Adrenal Implants.  If you're running Utility Goggles, you may opt for the new Gadgeteer trait for the nice fistful of Might stacks.  Leg Mods and Scope are both reasonable alternatives, also.  

In the Explosives tree, I've taken Accelerant-Packed Turrets for even more CC on your two Detonates, but you could slot Empowering Adrenaline for even more damage.  In Firearms, Hair Trigger and Rifle Mod are both obvious pickups, but you've got some options here as well.  Rifled Barrels is nice, but you want to be in the enemy's face as much as possible, so you may forego it just as easily.  Infused Precision is nice for combat mobility.  What I've slotted is Modified Ammunition, which should prove clearly the best choice in team fights, but you're not going to have a high condition uptime in 1v1's, so don't take that as set in stone.  Furthermore, you have the option of shifting some points into Inventions for more defense, especially given that you can pick up Energised Armour to mitigate the loss of damage somewhat.  Finally, if you're running Speedy Kits in the Tools line or Infused Precision, you may opt to shift 10 points into Alchemy for Invigorating Speed, which would then rule out taking Adrenal Implants (as the Vigour boon will put you at the +100% cap on Endurance regenration).  

If you want to see this build in action, look for videos from Five Guage from Good Fights; he's probably the best Power Engineer around, at least on NA servers if not gamewide.

---

(Condition build incoming shortly.)

[matthen]

For those advocating no condi duration while roaming... ask yourself how much condi damage engie pistol 1 and 2 is going to do against roamers who are running -50% to -60% condi duration (runes + food). Lots of people run this type of setup... consider the increased popularity of hoelbrak runes post 4/15 patch.

Of course, you don't need condi duration from runes or sigils, but you'll want to consider getting it from somewhere... it can come from traits, food, runes, or sigils. However, if your condi build has zero, some roamers are going to make your life miserable. At that point, you are much better running a power build.

[Rimmy1a]

Slein Jinn, on 07 May 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Well, you never really answered me about what else you run and what exactly you want the build to do, but here goes...

Operating on what assumptions I can make from other things you've said, what I'm going to recommend for you is a Static Discharge-centred Power build.

*snip*

You've done a lot of work and due diligence on your response to Aduah, so for helping in the community you get props.

However, you completely ignored her opening post:

Aduah, on 05 May 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

I was interested in some opinions of runes and sigils for a condi engineer. Over the last two weeks I have been looking at length at How best to build my engi for WvW.

Overall I still think this is a good choice, ConDmg/Precision/Toughness. It does make me a little nervous though considering I'd have quite a bit less Vitality. I also feel like I don't hit as hard. However if my conditions are doing DPS, I just need to stay alive longer than the other guy.

You've taken the key two points from her entire post, which is that she wants to know how to fine tune a build based around conditions for her engineer and that survivability is a concern for her, and flipped them on their head to give her a build that requires her to work harder to stay alive, puts her at a disadvantage when outnumbered, and is really better for people who have blooded themselves as thieves to use on their engis.

I've run a static discharge engi myself in the past. I'm not sure I'd recommend it to someone that is new to WvW or for them to change their build when they were just looking for rune and sigil options for a completely opposite, and viable, build.

[Slein Jinn]

Well I'm reading between the lines and drawing on past comments she's made to conclude that she wants a good roaming build more than she's concerned specifically with whether it's Condition or Power.  Based on other past comments she's made, I determined that a Power-based build would suit her needs better.  While you, being Rimmy, may read it differently, "Rimmy suggested I try condi" doesn't really read as "I'm committed to running a condi build" to me.  

But as I've said, I'll be offering builds for both alignments.  I've planned to give three builds all together--Power burst, Condition burst, and a more defensive option--but it's time consuming, and so is being a full-time teacher, so the other two will go up when I finish them.

[Rimmy1a]

Slein Jinn, on 07 May 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Well I'm reading between the lines and drawing on past comments she's made to conclude that she wants a good roaming build more than she's concerned specifically with whether it's Condition or Power.  Based on other past comments she's made, I determined that a Power-based build would suit her needs better.  While you, being Rimmy, may read it differently, "Rimmy suggested I try condi" doesn't really read as "I'm committed to running a condi build" to me.  

But as I've said, I'll be offering builds for both alignments.  I've planned to give three builds all together--Power burst, Condition burst, and a more defensive option--but it's time consuming, and so is being a full-time teacher, so the other two will go up when I finish them.

But it's not what she asked for! Just sigil and rune suggestions as she shapes out a condi build for herself.

I suggested something for her - I didn't give her a build or traits or anything of the sort. She determined what she wanted, she probably doesn't need people determining things for her that she didn't ask for. It does seem a bit arrogant.

And also didn't answer what she asked for.

[matthen]

I think Slein should make whatever suggestions he want, as long as it's in the vicinity of the topic... which it appears to be to me. The OP can ignore it if they want.

Similarly Rimmy can (and should) provide his/her opinion on those recommendations.

In the end, it looks like this thread is going to have a lot of good information in it.

[Aduah]

Thanks so much for your very detail post about the build. I may flop over and give it a tiddly twirl. In general though I do try to keep my distance I rely heavily on mobility. In the build you say go glassy, but then you choose skills they mean you must stay in close proximity to your enemy. Sounds like a dance with death. While that MAY be ok for skilled players. I am rather clumsy. I trip over rocks and such and my long Asura ears.

I have tried to use the tool belt in the past. While it DOES seem to do a good bit of dmg, more so than my grenades on the initial. In the long run, I'll take more dmg. Especially if I stand there  and try to hit. I went up against a warrior once, He came out of no where and killed me in like 4 hits. Considering I had like 24k health at the time, I was quite shocked. So keep away is more my game at this point. If I can put more conditions on you than you can cure, then I win.

On another note. Does the speed boost with say travelers, stack with my speed boost trait? If I can move faster, then I might be able to play "no touchy the loli asura" with those big hulking bruiser norm warriors.

[Slein Jinn]

Movement rate increases are always "highest modifier takes effect", so if you have Swiftness, then Traveler's Runes do nothing.  

Most good roaming builds are fairly glassy, regardless of whether they're Power or Condition, but you don't have to run 100% full glass.  You'll still do decent damage even if you're wearing a fair bit of Soldier gear, and if you need to do that to feel comfortable, by all means, wear some Soldier gear.  There's also a fairly significant difference between 1v1's and teamfights with a small havoc group; there's less impetus for you to build as glassy in teamfights as there is in 1v1's.  I will say this, though; what that Warrior did to you?  You can pretty much do the same thing to other people using the Static Discharge build; if you connect with your burst skills, you will melt faces.  

Also, a big part of winning 1v1's is recognising what and when to Dodge.  That warrior probably landed an Eviscerate crit on you, or maybe you even failed to get get out of a Hundred Blades; that stuff will wreck you regardless of how you're built, but with experience, you'll learn to dodge it.  When two good glassy 1v1'ers run into eachother, it's basically a lot of juking around until one of them catches the other out, and then the one who made a mistake gets burst down, but most of the people you run into roaming are frankly not that good, and you'll be able to burst a lot of them down almost right on engage.  

Even if you have no interest in competitive sPvP, I highly recommend you dabble there a bit, even if it's just spectating on the duelling rooms; the controlled environment offered by sPvP can really help you to learn what other professions can do to kill you, and help you figure out how to avoid those killer combos.  sPvP can be a lot of fun in its own right, but even if you don't find it that enjoyable, it really provides you great tools for learning how to fight better.

[Aduah]

Well what I think really what it boils down to is this... I am more than willing to play around with my traits and skills. Since they are easily changed at will.

What I cannot REALLY wrap my head around is stats and modifiers. Which is why I was seeking help with Runes and sigils.

OK this give me +ferocity, + condi dmg, +toughness... What I'm really trying to get a grasp on is OK I understand this give +this & +that. But HOW does it effect how much DMG I do, and HOW does it effect how much DMG I take. While I do value everyone's opinions, what it boils down to is. "How I make more hurty and take less hurty." Right now I am focusing on Conditions, So I do look forward to your on the condition build, especially runes and sigils. Since after all that IS why I created this thread and am most interested in.

[Slein Jinn]

Power damage basically scales linearly with Power and inversely with target Armour.  When it comes to Power/Precision/Ferocity, you can consolidate all three of them into one stat, modified proportionally by % Damage modifiers, that we call "effective Power" (ePower).  This ePower stat basically represents the average Power value when adjusting for crits.  

ePower = (Power * ((1 - Critical Chance) + (Critical Chance * Critical Damage / 100))) * Damage Modifier

We can further calculate Critical Chance and Critical Damage from the base stats:
Critical Chance = TRUNC((Precision - 822) / 21)
Critical Damage = 150 + TRUNC(Ferocity / 15)

We can therefore create a consolidated formula to calculate ePower directly from the base stats if you prefer:
ePower = (Power * ((1 - TRUNC((Precision - 822) / 21)) + (TRUNC((Precision - 822) / 21) * (150 + TRUNC(Ferocity / 15)) / 100))) * Damage Modifier

The exact relative values of each of the three direct damage stats vary based on how much you have of each, but point-for-point, Power is overwhelmingly the strongest of the three overall.  

Also, beware of a common maths "trap" people fall into when thinking about Precision.  Suppose you've got 200% Critical Damage, so a Critical Hit doubles the base damage (we'll stick with that throughout this explanation for the sake of mathematical simplicity).  Most people seem to be tempted to think that, if a Critical Hit doubles my damage, then a 1% increase in Critical Chance is equal to a 1% increase in total damage.  But this is wrong.  You can't simply look at the added chance of getting a Critical Hit; you have to compare the sums of the damage from Critical Hits and the damage from non-Critical Hits.  If you've got 40% Critical Chance already, and you add 10% Critical Chance, you're not adding 10% to your DPS; you're increasing your DPS by roughly 7%.  The higher your current Critical Chance, the less you'll gain from adding more, and the diminishing returns get rather dramatic as your Critical Chance gets high.  Going from from 60% to 70% Critical Chance, the gain is only 6%.  

Also note that, since the Damage Modifier field is applied at the back-end, you can basically convert % Damage traits and effects directly to ePower.  So, for a simple example, if you've got 2500 ePower (with no % Damage modifiers), and you take a trait that adds 10% damage, that's equivalent to adding 250 Power.  

The direct damage formula in GW2 is quite simple:
Damage = (Weapon Strength * Power * Skill Coefficient) / Target Armour
where Weapon Strength is a variable in the range indicated by the weapon, and the Skill Coefficient varies from skill to skill.  Utilities and Elites replace Weapon Strength with their own unique values.  

That's a lot to digest, but basically what you can take away from that is that you can reduce Power, Precision, and Ferocity to one "master" stat called ePower, and your damage scales upward linearly with your ePower and downward linearly with your target's Armour.  

---

Condition Damage is pretty simple; it scales upward linearly with your Condition Damage stat and isn't mitigated by anything, but obviously faces condition removal skills.  Each condition has a pre-set base damage as well as its own scaling factor.  

For example, Bleeding deals the following damage per-second (at level 80):
Damage per Second = Stacks * (42.5 + (Condition Damage * 0.05))
You can skip "Stacks" for conditions that stack Duration rather than Intensity, since Stacks will always be equal to 1, thus Burning deals much more:
Damage per Second = (328 + (Condition Damage * 0.25))

Aduah, on 07 May 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Well what I think really what it boils down to is this... I am more than willing to play around with my traits and skills. Since they are easily changed at will.

This is why I recommended a roaming build where the gear is very similar to what's needed for a good WvW zerg build and for a good PvE build.  Condition is great for roaming, but it's great only for roaming.