53 replies to this topic

[Aduah]

Thats silly, Why would condition ONLY be good for roaming? Aside from that fact that I was looking for a roaming build, why would condition dmg make any difference If I am roaming or not? I have bombs and grenades that are AoE, so That means those conditions are hitting more than one target. The damage is not divided by the number of targets I hit with my bombs/grenades. Granted GW2 allows you to only hit 5 targets at once, but this is true for any character, engineer or not. So how are conditions not good in a zerg? Unless I am going up against the inanimate objects, which conditions will obviously not effect. If I am going up against an enemy zerg, that condition damage will effect a player just as much as direct damage. With my weapons & kits all skills will do some kind of condition dmg. While I'm not pumping out as much direct dmg, in theory if I can apply conditions more quickly and effectively than they can clear them, then I win don't I? Sure in a zerg you can have other characters doing mass purges, but most of these skills end up having a long cool down time. So within that cool down time I can reapply all those conditions that they just purged, and they will have to deal with it for a longer amount of time due to having to wait for their cool down. As soon as they purge again, I can just stack on the conditions again. Is that not correct or am I missing a grievous oversight?

I guess what im saying is, If I can lay down conditions faster than they can purge them, then how is a condition build a bad thing, especially if I take traits to cut down my bombs recharge time? If my bombs recharge in 20-40% of the time it would normally take then I can bomb lesser conditions every second and more major conditions every few seconds.

[Rimmy1a]

Aduah, on 08 May 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Unless I am going up against the inanimate objects, which conditions will obviously not effect.

Oh no, you can bleed siege.

Magic, innit?

[Aduah]

Rimmy1a, on 08 May 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Oh no, you can bleed siege.

Magic, innit?

And that living arrow cart I keep trying to poison.

[Slein Jinn]

Aduah, on 08 May 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Thats silly, Why would condition ONLY be good for roaming?

It's not that Condition Damage doesn't work in other settings.  But it's completely dominated by Power builds in zergs and PvE; Power builds just offer much more.  

In large-scale WvW, there are a variety of reasons for this.  For one thing, the availability condition removal is much higher than it is in a roaming setting.  Because so many classes have group condition removal, five players can clear conditions on five players more reliably than one player can clear conditions on one player.  And that's without even touching the fact that the needs of zerg builds often allow individual players to bring more condition removal than can be worked into roaming builds, too.  This phenomenon is further exacerbated by the way in which multiple condition builds interact with each other.  Players can't each create their own condition stacks that must be cleared separately, but rather one can clear the conditions stacked by three players roughly as easily as he can clear the conditions stacked by one player.  

Beyond that, though, the nature of Condition Damage just isn't as well suited to the needs of zerg vs. zerg combat.  You can win 1v1's and 2v2's through pure attrition.  In zergs, the possibility of coordinated "heal bombs" can essentially reset the fight more or less.  Gradually wearing the opponent down works in small mans, but on larger scales, it becomes much more important to be able to spike them down.  Power builds let you deliver more damage in a shorter timeframe so as to influence the fight more.  Sustained "chip" damage is important, but you really get your kills when the driver shouts, "Bomb on me!" and everyone blows a big cooldown in unison, downing enemies before they can regroup and heal up again.  

The conditions that really do make a big difference in large-scale WvW are those that disrupt enemy movement, because they prevent the enemy line from staying as tightly stacked.  This leaves them more exposed to those damage spikes, because it's more likely that you'll be able to get most of the AE's landing on the same set of targets rather than watered down and dispersed among 15+ targets.  Poison can also be valuable, but for its ability to disrupt enemy Heal Bombs rather than for damage.  The thing about all these valuable disruptive conditions, though, is that Condition Damage is irrelevant to them.  Necromancers, for example, build for Power, but still spec to spam Blind and Chill.  

(If you haven't gone through the Engineer section of my WvW build mega-post, you should really give it a look.  It would actually probably help you to read the whole thing, as I explain everything in detail for each class there, and it could help you to understand the mechanics and playstyle that govern large-scale WvW.)

In PvE there are two very clear-cut, very simple reasons.  In PvE in general, particularly dungeons and Fractals, it's all about glass cannon DPS builds, and Power simply offers higher peak DPS.  In open-world content, there's also a scalability problem; Condition builds stack with each other miserably, whereas Power builds stack with each other infinitely.

You can run condition builds in any setting (although you'll get kicked from dungeon speed run groups), but outside of sPvP and roaming WvW, the reality is that they're very far from optimal.

[Slein Jinn]

Okay, this took longer than I planned, but I've been busy IRL lately.  Here we go with a condition build for you.  I've also revised the previous build slightly.  

6/2/0/4/2
I've got Pistol/Pistol slotted because Blow Torch is your burstiest condition, and Glue Shot is decent for setting up combos or peeling from a unfavourable fight.  Swapping to a Shield is also perfectly viable, though, offering some more control and mitigation.  You're running three kits in this build, so your offhand weapon is really a fairly small part of the build anyway compared to many builds.  The goal of this build is basically to overwhelm your opponent with sheer volume of condition spam, and to do that, you're basically going to be cycling through kits burning cooldowns to stack conditions.  It should be noted that, although this build has range, and you can fall back and still maintain ranged pressure when needed, you're still going to primarily want to be pretty close to your opponent, not just for Bombs, but also for Detonate Turret and the huge boost to Blowtorch for being under 200 range.  

Sigil of Battle absolutely goes without saying on an Engineer; you'll be able to reliably count on it for 6 Might stacks, which is worth 12.5% of your total Condition Damage.  I've slotted Sigil of Bursting for the other Sigil, but you could also take Energy for more survivability.  Runes of Antitoxin would be my pick, as you haven't got much condition removal yourself, but Runes of the Undead would provide an extra 117 Condition Damage.  I've gone for predominantly Dire stats on gear, mixed with enough Rabid to get up around 20% Critical Chance for the sake of triggering Sharpshooter.  You can tweak the balance between the two combinations, but bear in mind that you're actually getting more Condition Damage out of the Dire because of Blood Injection and Tuning Crystals; Rabid is there for procs.  With as much Regeneration as a Healing Turret allows you to stack, combined with Backpack Regenerator, it's very tempting to run some Apothecary--consider this ALTERNATIVE--for the fairly significant boost to your ability to sustain yourself in an attritional fight, but you're giving up a fair bit of Condition Damage in taking equipment pieces where it is a secondary rather than primary stat.  

The traits are fairly straightforward.  Speedy Kits is your mobility skill; you can't beat 100% uptime on Swiftness.  Blood Injection is worth over 100 Condition Damage, and it's worth noting that the Minor Traits you're getting in Alchemy are also reasonably strong.  You've got two options for the second Major in Alchemy: Backpack Regenerator is pretty significant for sustained survival, but Invigorating Speed gives you a high uptime on Vigour for more dodges to counter enemy burst; it's a matter of how well you use your dodges.  Hair Trigger is great for more Blowtorches if you're running offhand Pistol, but if you opt for offhand Shield, I'd take Fireforged Trigger for the Elixir Gun cooldowns instead (you could make a decent case for Fireforged Trigger even with offhand Pistol).  Explosives tree is all about your Bombs and Grenades.  Note that Explosive Powder only affects physical damage from explosives, not Condition Damage; notice that there is no "damage modifier" field in the Condition Damage formulae I posted earlier in this thread.

[Silvernis]

Sorry for the necro, but I'm pondering my almost-80 condi engie's gear-to-be, and this seemed like an appropriate thread.

I've been toying with potential builds based around Carrion gear or Rabid gear. Generally speaking, is one considered better/more effective than the other? I feel like the Carrion build would give me a semi-decent balance of power, vitality, condi damage, and crits to work with the Torment sigil. The Rabid build would sacrifice a lot of power and something like 2600 HP, but it would have higher condi damage, slightly higher precision, and significantly more toughness. I'm leery of giving up the power and the vit, but then again, 2600 isn't necessarily game-changing, and the extra armor would probably help. As far as runes go, I'm leaning towards Undead—it'd pair nicely with Rabid gear—but Antitoxin and Scavenging could maybe be useful, too.

Thoughts? I'm no expert, so any input would be welcome.

[Slein Jinn]

Carrion gear doesn't get you any crits; Rabid gear doesn't have "slightly" more precision, it has infinitely more precision.  Power is largely irrelevant to a condi build; you need the precision to get the crits to trigger conditions from Sharpshooter, Precise Sights, Incendiary Powder, etc.  (You don't, however, need it for a Torment sigil, because there are better sigils for an Engineer than a single short-duration stack of Torment every ~6-6.5 seconds.)  If you need to add some Vitality to your build, get it from Shaman's or Dire pieces, not Carrion.  

As for runes, Antitoxin are the defensive option, Balthazar are the offensive.

[Aduah]

Sil I use full rabbid, Personally, I dont think the extra vitality is necessary. I run at 23k without the extra vitality. Also, As far as runes go, I am currently using runes of balthazar. Im traited to inflict burning on crit, so my burns last longer and burn hotter.

I'll go a bit more into where i stand here a little later since I need to take a look at my gear and traits and runs and ill tell you what I run.

[Aduah]

This is more or less my current build. 6/2/0/4/2

It is not by any means a  finished build either. My trinkets arent finished, when I eventually make my ascended, it will also be rabid, but with runes of perplexity. On weapons I go Corruption, for the extra condition, and battle for the extra might on weapon swap. I use pistol/sheild for the conditions and ability to blast myself for extra might. Fire Bomb + Magnetic Sheild/Inversion.

As far as skill 7 goes, I change it around as i see fit, depending on what I am doing. Rocket boots/Elixir C (as that seems to be the most efficient way of condi clear)/ or Elixir gun.

As far as the traits, they are all pretty self explanatory, but if you have questions, feel free to ask. I change my traits around too but usually only for pve.

[Slein Jinn]

Healing Turret is so much stronger than AED it's not even funny.

[Silvernis]

Slein Jinn, on 30 July 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Carrion gear doesn't get you any crits; Rabid gear doesn't have "slightly" more precision, it has infinitely more precision.  Power is largely irrelevant to a condi build; you need the precision to get the crits to trigger conditions from Sharpshooter, Precise Sights, Incendiary Powder, etc.  (You don't, however, need it for a Torment sigil, because there are better sigils for an Engineer than a single short-duration stack of Torment every ~6-6.5 seconds.)  If you need to add some Vitality to your build, get it from Shaman's or Dire pieces, not Carrion.  

As for runes, Antitoxin are the defensive option, Balthazar are the offensive.

Yes, I know Carrion doesn't have precision, lol. That build got its crits from trinkets.

Aduah, on 30 July 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

[snip]

Thanks for the info. I ended up going with pretty much full Rabid with a mix of trinkets, and I'm pretty happy with the results thus far.

Slein Jinn, on 31 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Healing Turret is so much stronger than AED it's not even funny.

I suppose it's a case of YMMV, but I have to admit, AED seemed rather underwhelming to me when I tried it. Personally, I like the elixir. The turret obviously has a lot to offer, but I can't help feeling sort of tethered in place when I use turrets. The elixir mightn't be amazing, but it's a decent heal that can be used on the go.

[Slein Jinn]

You don't use the turret to keep it in place.  You drop it, overload it, and then detonate it.  Unless you're running an Elixir build with full trait support, it is the only heal you should ever use on an Engineer.  It simply offers much more than the alternatives.  It's a good condi clear, it's a water combo field, and it offers a lot of healing on a short cooldown.  And there's nothing else for the Adept trait down Explosions really worth taking over Accelerant Packed Turrets to add a knockback to the many things Healing Turret brings to the table.

[Aduah]

Slein Jinn, on 31 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Healing Turret is so much stronger than AED it's not even funny.

*shrugs* Im not coordinated enough for that.

[Silvernis]

Aduah, on 31 July 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

*shrugs* Im not coordinated enough for that.

[Aduah]

Oh, and besides that ANet said is a live stream supposedly, as this was posted by dulfy.

http://www.reddit.co...ranger_changes/

That AED is also supposed to work as a condi clear in some kind of update. Still doesnt seem to be the case as of the last update though.

[Silvernis]

I remember reading that. If it did work as a solid condi clear, it might have wider appeal. As it stands now, though, how do you manage the delayed heal? Is it a matter of anticipating the damage and activating the AED before you need it?

[Slein Jinn]

Aduah, on 31 July 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

*shrugs* Im not coordinated enough for that.

Only one way to get better...

Engineer Healing Turret is arguably the strongest heal in the game for any class.  No other healing skill does so much.  Tons of self-healing, quite a bit of party healing, party condition removal, party Regeneration, a Water field, damage, and a Knockback, and all on quite a short cooldown.  I don't know what "coordination" is required to utilise Healing Turret per se--if anything, it's harder to get full value out of AED (especially given that good players will recognise you using it and adjust accordingly)--but for such an utterly dominant ability, it's worth whatever practise is necessary.  

Aduah, on 31 July 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Oh, and besides that ANet said is a live stream supposedly, as this was posted by dulfy.

http://www.reddit.co...ranger_changes/

That AED is also supposed to work as a condi clear in some kind of update. Still doesnt seem to be the case as of the last update though.

That's some future update still subject to change, but the fact that the devs view it as underpowered should really give you extra reason to believe me when I tell you how much stronger Healing Turret is.  And it'll still be stronger even after the buff to AED if it goes live as described in the podcast, albeit by slightly less.

[Aduah]

Silvernis, on 31 July 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

I remember reading that. If it did work as a solid condi clear, it might have wider appeal. As it stands now, though, how do you manage the delayed heal? Is it a matter of anticipating the damage and activating the AED before you need it?

Yes, You anticipate by calculating apx how much dmg you are taking vs the amount of time till the aed ticks. If you are good enough you can hit right as you are about 200-1000 hp, as long as you're not constantly being stun locked, you can have your 3x heal almost every time.

[Raven]

Aduah, on 31 July 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Yes, You anticipate by calculating apx how much dmg you are taking vs the amount of time till the aed ticks. If you are good enough you can hit right as you are about 200-1000 hp, as long as you're not constantly being stun locked, you can have your 3x heal almost every time.

It also has a tool belt stun, and the live stream has it removing harmful conditions, so it might pop up as my favorite heal.  For now I'm switched from cleanse elixirs trait to regen backpack, and switched back to the healing turret.  I don't get as much healing, but the conditions are removed before I blast it.  It takes taking a face-full of camp a bit easier.

[Slein Jinn]

Raven, on 01 August 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

I don't get as much healing, but the conditions are removed before I blast it.

You should actually be getting more healing out of Healing Turret than you do out of Elixir H provided you're actually using all of its features, not to mention the 5s shorter cooldown.

2520 (Dropping the Turret) + 2520 (Overloading the Turret) + 1320 (Detonating the Turret) = 6360 > 5560 (Elixir H)

And that's without accounting for the possibility of using additional blast finishers on either of the two water fields it provides.