51 replies to this topic

[Biff Rangoon]

The quest for more supportive builds for my warrior has me looking at builds generally to see if there's a new angle to play or just a way to inject a bit more diversity so I don't get locked into the same style of play.

I ran something like this last night and it seemed to go reasonably well.

I was in a party (and YES, I was running Battle Standard, and NO I didn't have to use it once ), but others were experimenting with more supportive builds, so they didn't want me to go full support. I wanted a traited warhorn because we had some slow movers, and I wanted a way to set up spikers for burst (though it never came up, because resistance was light).

Pros:

• Perma swiftness for up to 10 allies
  
• Near perma vigor for up to 10 allies (perma vigor for me)
  
• Good damage and burst (via 100 blades and Final Thrust, plus it has good power and crit)
  
• Some condi clear/conversion for up to 10 allies
  
• Very good resistance to condis personally
  
• Pretty insane engage/disengage
  
• 4.5s immobilize to set up bursts for allies and 100b

Cons:

• No aoe and no blocks... I predict this build won't do well in 1vx
  
• Immob is the primary cc, and I find that less reliable than stuns, dazes, knocks
  
• Not optimal for team play (thought that wasn't my goal, hence the gs)

Still, I'm going to run this for a while and see how it does for solo roaming and dueling. One variant I'm considering is 0/0/6/4/4, dropping Reckless Dodge for Defy Pain... I don't think it'll be better, but I'll try it.

The main sources of damage are 100 blades (set up with Bul's Charge (2s knockdown) and Flurry (4.5s immob), combined with quickness from sigil), and Final Thrust (set up by Savage Leap/Leg Specialist). If I can get a full 100b out, that would be about 12k and the latter should do about 8k if it lands. 1k on sword autos and 1.5-2.2k on gs autos.

Anyway, any thoughts on tweaks to improve this, just let me know. I'm really just looking to increase my skill with a variety of weapon types, so the goal is less creating the ultimate roflstomper and more something that's effective in the range of circumstances I'll face in wvw while I do that.

[Slein Jinn]

It looks like a DPS Guardian with less team utility and less burst damage.  

I can't see how that can possibly be better than just dropping your tacked on minors--Reckless Dodge/Armoured Attack--to pick up Shouts.  Shouts are not only better for personal sustain, but they offer amazing team support.  You're not even really sacrificing damage, as the boons from For Great Justice are probably about a wash against what you're losing.  Having trouble seeing much reason to keep Greatsword over Hammer, too.

[Biff Rangoon]

The gs is entirely for mobility while roaming. At the current tier, being able to escape at a moment's notice is really important. Hammer is undeniably better for group fights. Lb would be too if fights stayed more or less in one place.

I thought about just going shout, but shake it off isn't enough stun break for roaming, and if I equip balanced to address that, losing leg specialist, a closer/escape, and the extra vigour isn't worth the two heals plus what I'd get from FGJ and shake it off. Trooper runes would give the extra condi cleanse with shouts, but it's overkill for what I come across condi wise, and the loss of pack runes is too expensive damage wise to make the trade worthwhile.

Also, the minors aren't anything to sneeze at, with 2k+ when I crit on dodge (and I have lots of dodges), plus iirc 150 power our so from armoured attack. The reason I'm considering doing Reckless Dodge for Defy Pain is for an insurance plan if I'm getting bursted, I have to flee the scene, or if I'm low and my enemy smells the blood and overcommits. This build has enough burst to turn the tables if someone does that.

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 18 May 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

The gs is entirely for mobility while roaming. At the current tier, being able to escape at a moment's notice is really important. Hammer is undeniably better for group fights. Lb would be too if fights stayed more or less in one place.

Sword is plenty of mobility.  In your original post, you describe this as a team fight build.  Well, being full Nascar doesn't do much for you when no one else on your team can keep up.  Savage Leap is one of the best leaps in the game; you really don't need a Greatsword on top of that.  

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I thought about just going shout, but shake it off isn't enough stun break for roaming, and if I equip balanced to address that, losing leg specialist, a closer/escape, and the extra vigour isn't worth the two heals plus what I'd get from FGJ and shake it off. Trooper runes would give the extra condi cleanse with shouts, but it's overkill for what I come across condi wise, and the loss of pack runes is too expensive damage wise to make the trade worthwhile.

Well, for large-scale WvW, two Shouts with Dolyak Signet is the meta.  For small-scale stuff, though, you do want three Shouts, but it's not just because you want to make use of the trait support--all three Shouts do awesome things.  Fear Me is just insanely useful in smaller teamfights; it breaks Guardians' Shelter, Engineers' Gear Shield, etc., it's awesome at peeling for allies, it's good for relieving pressure on yourself, it's an excellent setup CC, and it can cover banners/rezzes/stomps/etc. almost as well as Stability (even better in a few situations).  Moreover, you keep describing solo roamer mentality in the context of what's supposed to be a team fight build; trust your teammates to peel for you when you're getting trained.  

Also note: Shake it Off is an amazing stunbreak in 1vX situations, because the cooldown is so short that you can often stunbreak their most important CC's every time they land them.  

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Also, the minors aren't anything to sneeze at, with 2k+ when I crit on dodge (and I have lots if dodges), plus iirc 150 power our so from armoured attack.

You're getting 177 Power from Armoured Attack including the 50 baseline from the point in Strength; For Great Justice is worth about 145 Power--plus about 50% uptime on Fury--for you and four allies.  Which is more valuable offensively isn't even close.

[Biff Rangoon]

Slein Jinn, on 18 May 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Sword is plenty of mobility.  In your original post, you describe this as a team fight build.  Well, being full Nascar doesn't do much for you when no one else on your team can keep up.  Savage Leap is one of the best leaps in the game; you really don't need a Greatsword on top of that.  


Well, for large-scale WvW, two Shouts with Dolyak Signet is the meta.  For small-scale stuff, though, you do want three Shouts, but it's not just because you want to make use of the trait support--all three Shouts do awesome things.  Fear Me is just insanely useful in smaller teamfights; it breaks Guardians' Shelter, Engineers' Gear Shield, etc., it's awesome at peeling for allies, it's good for relieving pressure on yourself, it's an excellent setup CC, and it can cover banners/rezzes/stomps/etc. almost as well as Stability (even better in a few situations).  Moreover, you keep describing solo roamer mentality in the context of what's supposed to be a team fight build; trust your teammates to peel for you when you're getting trained.  

Also note: Shake it Off is an amazing stunbreak in 1vX situations, because the cooldown is so short that you can often stunbreak their most important CC's every time they land them.  


You're getting 177 Power from Armoured Attack plus the 50 baseline from the point in Strength; For Great Justice is worth about 145 Power--plus about 50% uptime on Fury--for you and four allies.  Which is more valuable offensively isn't even close.

My bad. I was (and am) typing these on my phone while on the move. The team last night was the starting point for the build, but the goal was something more generally applicable, like something that's suitable for roaming but can provide some support to nearby allies, whether in an impromptu party with me or just multiple responders to the same camp, tower, whatever. This isn't a build to fit a specific niche in a comped group.

As good as shake it off is (especially traited and with runes) I don't think I've ever lost to a warrior running full shouts while running my usual warrior build, and there are tonnes of hammer warriors, fear necros, dazing thieves and mesmers, etc out there. Stability is way too valuable, and shake it off doesn't cut it except maybe in organized group play where stability is provided by others, or friends will save you if you get stun locked.

The build I linked already has perma fury while in combat due to the runes and SoR, and about 50% uptime for allies. So fgj might give more fury to people around me, provided there are people around me and IF they don't have other sources for the 50% of the time I'm not providing it to them with the runes. Compare that with 2-3k on crit dodge against up to five targets from a perma vigored reckless dodger, and I'd say fgj starts to pale. Even against the alt of Defy Pain, for the reasons I mentioned, I don't see fgj contributing as much outside of a comped party.

But yeah, as I meant to mention but hopefully implied, I'd have run shout heal last night if we didn't have so many people running support (lots of heals, condi removal, etc). The goal of this build was to scale from roaming to low/mid level support, and to give me practice with a different weapon set than I've been using. The party last night just gave me a chance to try it out in group play.

[Biff Rangoon]

For anyone who might be interested, I did some light field testing today roaming with this build.

Observations:

• The lack of interrupts (only has one), combined with the lesser damage from the sword, definitely slows down the speed at which camps, etc. are taken when compared to gs/h, gs/a, gs/lb, h/lb, m/gs. Not bad though... probably took about a min to clear unupgraded camps with dolys, including circle time
  
• The insane mobility opens up fun possibilities when fighting. In fact, it's not unlike running a thief in that you get to choose when to engage, when to disengage, and if the fight will continue. That was true both in 1v1s and in group fights.
  
• In the latter, people have trouble tracking you when you move so fast and far in a melee, which allows you to easily shake aggro and pick/shift targets more easily than if you're stuck in melee range swinging a hammer
  
• You can also pick targets way on the fringe (like positioned tricksy power bow rangers), pressuring and possibly killing them before their friends can respond.
  
• It's very easy to bait out active condi cleanses due to leg specialist (and even bleeds and cripples from the sword) in order to set up a nice burst. The combo of leg specialist, savage leap, and final thrust is a dream, especially when FT hits multiple targets.
  
• I couldn't tell how much the warhorn was helping allies in the area, but I don't suppose it hurt them either.
  
• The normal gs/h build has more beat down power, and will probably win more fights as long as it isn't kited
  
• On the other hand, this build can't really be kited, so you can stick to your target or escape fully losing a fight way more easily. One much maligned Nascar warrior tactic is to keep resetting the fight until you can win it, often because the enemy's skills are in cooldown or they make a mistake. This build allows you to do that easily, which might actually make it easier to "win" fights than may be possible with the gs/h. Btw, it's maligned, but I personally see it as the warrior equivalent to thieves with stealth.
  
• The build is pretty fun and I'll probably run it for the next few weeks, or at least keep it on standby as a viable build that can be brought out whenever extreme mobility is called for
  
• Feel free to give it a try for the lulz, it's not too shabby for roaming around and aggravating the enemy (whole groups tried to run me down, use tricks, etc. to try to catch me after first engagement, especially if I'd killed one or more of them earlier)

[Silvernis]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

Btw, it's maligned, but I personally see it as the warrior equivalent to thieves with stealth.

Because, like stealth, it's annoying and lame.

[Biff Rangoon]

Silvernis, on 19 May 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Because, like stealth, it's annoying and lame.

It's not unbeatable, most people just don't build to deal with it. They choose to do other things like boost their killing power or other ways of mitigating damage. Stuns, dazes, cripples, immobilizes, etc. can still stop or impede most warriors from exiting a fight. The warrior may be able to mitigate those depending on their own skills and whether they're on cd, but the same is true for most other things in the game.

You run an engi, so you have loads of tricks that can either slow or stop a fleeing warrior (unless key skills are off cd), or to escape from fights going badly yourself.

[Silvernis]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

It's not unbeatable, most people just don't build to deal with it. They choose to do other things like boost their killing power or other ways of mitigating damage. Stuns, dazes, cripples, immobilizes, etc. can stop or impeded most warriors from exiting a fight. They may be able to mitigate that depending on their own skills and whether they're on cd, but the same is true for most other things in the game.

I know it's not unbeatable, but (like stealth) that doesn't make it any less annoying or lame. I'm beyond sick and tired of these dipshits who run up and attack me, then turn tail and run away as far as they can when I hit back, and then run back to do it again—and again and again—until they finally land a lucky stun or something. If it takes you five resets to actually drop me, then I'm disinclined to call it a win.

And for the record, that's a general plural "you." I'm not trying to pick a fight with you personally; I'm just kvetching about runners in general. Anyhow, I'll stop clogging your thread now.

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You run an engi, so you have loads of tricks that can either slow or stop a fleeing warrior (unless key skills are off cd), or to escape from fights going badly yourself.

Warriors aren't generally too bad. I mean, I win some, I lose some, but it's usually anyone's game provided they aren't super tanky. Thieves and eles are the worst runners, though (stealth and mobility skills, and FGS).

Also, I don't escape from 1v1s or small-scale group fights. Ever. Maybe it's stupid, but I refuse to run away, especially if I attacked first. I may backpedal to open some distance and buy time for CDs, but I won't flat-out retreat.

[Biff Rangoon]

Silvernis, on 19 May 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Warriors aren't generally too bad. I mean, I win some, I lose some, but it's usually anyone's game provided they aren't super tanky. Thieves and eles are the worst runners, though (stealth and mobility skills, and FGS).

Also, I don't escape from 1v1s or small-scale group fights. Ever. Maybe it's stupid, but I refuse to run away, especially if I attacked first. I may backpedal to open some distance and buy time for CDs, but I won't flat-out retreat.

I once chased an engi from ne camp all the way to their spawn on our bl, and I wasn't the only one trying. We caught him before he made it, but he had some hustle for sure. Eles have great escape, as you mentioned, but I find myself well equipped to handle thieves unless they've got lots of stealth (I can outpace their initiative unless they can get to great hiding places). Rangers can have amazing hustle if equipped for it. I even once came across a guardian who could do the same thing.

I'll run from 1v1s (not duels) if things aren't going my way , but not to reset my health and come back at them unless they try to chase me (did that to a mes last night). Then I figure it's fair game. But I don't begrudge other warriors that do it, even when they do it to me, mostly because I know a warrior who can disengage from me isn't likely to be able to kill me (they've gone so deep into mobility they've gimped their fighting power). Unstructured group fights I won't even think about not resetting health if needed, unless an ally needs me to stay in to keep them alive.

But choosing to be a bag for someone and starting back from spawn? No chance... I don't even see the rationale, tbh, especially with most other classes having their own mechanics to disengage.

I do other things too, like edge the fight toward friendly npcs unless it's a duel, position critters like skales and griffons between me and ranged attackers to absorb the missiles, give the enemy more aggro, and my more opportunities to rally, move the fight away from critters if I'm in the advantage or they're running an x/d thief, use environment to block line of site (including trees, hedge walls, houses, and the aforementioned critters, move the fight out of zones my opponent is trying to set up (e.g. engi turrets), etc.

For me, that's all just a part of wvw combat, and one of the reasons I prefer it to pvp arenas, tbh.

[Silvernis]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

I once chased an engi from ne camp all the way to their spawn on our bl, and I wasn't the only one trying. We caught him before he made it, but he had some hustle for sure. Eles have great escape, as you mentioned, but I find myself well equipped to handle thieves unless they've got lots of stealth (I can outpace their initiative unless they can get to great hiding places). Rangers can have amazing hustle if equipped for it. I even once came across a guardian who could do the same thing.

Speedy kits and rocket boots (and I guess acid bomb) can cover a lot of distance. Even so, I basically give up on eles once they drop FGS, since they can get halfway across the map if they really want to run away (FGS 3 and 4, not to mention RTL, lighting flash, and the dagger fire dash). Thieves can go either way. I've gotten a lot better at fending off their opening bursts and putting them on the defensive, but I do still struggle with actually dropping them.

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I'll run from 1v1s (not duels) if things aren't going my way , but not to reset my health and come back at them unless they try to chase me (did that to a mes last night). Then I figure it's fair game. But I don't begrudge other warriors that do it, even when they do it to me, mostly because I know a warrior who can disengage from me isn't likely to be able to kill me (they've gone so deep into mobility they've gimped their fighting power). Unstructured group fights I won't even think about not resetting health if needed, unless an ally needs me to stay in to keep them alive.

But choosing to be a bag for someone and starting back from spawn? No chance... I don't even see the rationale, tbh, especially with most other classes having their own mechanics to disengage.

Like I said, maybe it's stupid and naive, but I can't stand turning tail and running away. I dunno; it just doesn't feel right. I know it might make more tactical sense to withdraw, but it still feels really cheap to me, especially when I pick the fight in the first place. If I attack someone, I want to follow through with the fight regardless of who wins. If I get rekt and give them a bag, good for them. If I get the bag, good for me. </Sil being bad at WvW>

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 18 May 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

As good as shake it off is (especially traited and with runes) I don't think I've ever lost to a warrior running full shouts while running my usual warrior build, and there are tonnes of hammer warriors, fear necros, dazing thieves and mesmers, etc out there. Stability is way too valuable, and shake it off doesn't cut it except maybe in organized group play where stability is provided by others, or friends will save you if you get stun locked.

Shoutbow is advantaged in every single Warrior-vs-Warrior matchup.  It beats Hambow.  It beats Hammer/Greatsword.  It beats Greatbow.  It beats Condi Warrior.  Basically, it beats anything that can't kite it.  That's not to say you should run Shoutbow in WvW, because the few things that can kite you to death are fairly plentiful in WvW, but if you think Shouts are bad 1v1, you've just never fought a good Shout Warrior.  Shouts completely dominate Stances for personal survivability.  Shouts don't get used on current Hammer/GS & Hambow builds only because those builds have too many required traits deep in other lines, but this build could get Shouts almost for free, and once the trait changes hit, you'll probably almost never see Stance Warriors again, because builds like Hambow will be able to get traited Shouts without having to give up core functionality.  

In 1v1's, Shake it Off is one of the best stunbreaks in the Warrior arsenal.  Stability gets more important as the fights get bigger, but that lower cooldown is huge in 1v1's.  You don't have to stunbreak every CC from a Hammer warrior.  Some you can afford to tank, and some you can dodge.  But always being able to stunbreak the important ones that you can't avoid is a big deal, and a 20s cooldown is great for that.  It also gives you much better tools for dealing with Immobilise/Chill, which can be rough on Stance Warriors.  

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

But I don't begrudge other warriors that do it, even when they do it to me, mostly because I know a warrior who can disengage from me isn't likely to be able to kill me (they've gone so deep into mobility they've gimped their fighting power).

Well, that's just what you've done in this build.  

If you want to play a runaway warrior, feel free.  But don't kid yourself that it's somehow a team-focused build.  It's very far from it.

[Biff Rangoon]

Well, we're not talking about a shoutbow build here, we're talking about a shout build someone would be running in Wvw. One stun break on a 20s cooldown is definitely not sufficient for roaming in Wvw... even taking a camp would take too long with the repeated shield bashes, hammer from the claimer, nevermind all the cc you'll get from players.

Go ahead and try it out. I'm willing to bet you won't get the success you think you will unless you stay in a limited niche. In fact, it seems like your models are either organized comp group, large group, or 1v1, and within the context of a straight fight in an open field only. There's way more to this than that.

I also think you need to re-read the earlier comments. I've explicitly clarified that this isn't a team focused build, but one that would be used more for roaming and then some ad hoc support. I also mentioned that this build has less killing power than even my normal roaming build, but brings other assets to the table that may or may not be worth the tradeoff, depending on preferences and the situation.

Don't try to put me in your box, man. I'm an eagle, my wings will soar and my battle cry will be, " CAW CAW SCREEEEEEEEEEEECH!!!"

(I don't know what eagles sound like. )

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Well, we're not talking about a shoutbow build here, we're talking about whether or not heal shouts (and possibly trooper runes) should be added to a roaming build that could be run in Wvw. One stun break on a 20s cooldown is definitely not sufficient for roaming in Wvw... even taking a camp would take too long with the repeated shield bashes, hammer from the claimer, nevermind all the cc you'll get from players.

Go ahead and try it out. I'm willing to bet you won't get the success you think you will unless you stay in a limited niche.

I actually do run Shoutbow in WvW a pretty significant proportion of the relatively little time I spend in WvW.  I've been running it with full zerker gear and cheap Pirate runes just because that's what I happen to have on the character; I probably have the resources to put more appropriate gear on her, but I'm in chipmunk mode until we see where the chips fall with all the upcoming changes.  Even with that far from optimal gear setup, I can clear a camp in about 30-40 seconds, and I could probably improve my speed flipping if I cared to invest the mental energy into it.  I've won nearly every 1v1 I've come across in WvW--I remember one loss to a very decent Power Ranger who kited well, but I've killed a few Power Rangers, too, and they're about as close to a hard counter as there is for Shoutbow... I'm probably about 8-0 against other Warriors in WvW, most of them Hammer/GS.  

All that said, I don't think Shoutbow is an optimal WvW roaming build right now.  I play it because I don't really care about WvW roaming, I really enjoy the build, and it's my main in sPvP.  It has the same problem a lot of Warrior builds have--vulnerability to kiting--but it has a worse case of it than many of them do.  My point, though, is that the problems with Shouts in WvW isn't the Shouts themselves.  Shouts are unquestionably stronger than Stances.  The issue is that, for most popular roaming weapon sets, you can't get all the traits you need to make everything else work properly while running Shouts.  But that's soon to be changing; with the upcoming trait changes, you're going to see Shouts with basically every weapon set.  And anyway, you're running a build here where you could effectively get Shouts almost for free.

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In fact, it seems like your models are either organized comp group, large group, or 1v1, and within the context of a straight fight in an open field only. There's way more to this than that.

I also think you need to re-read the earlier comments. I've explicitly clarified that this isn't a team focused build, but one that would be used more for roaming and then some ad hoc support. I also mentioned that this build has less killing power than even my normal roaming build, but brings other assets to the table that may or may not be worth the tradeoff, depending on preferences and the situation. Don't try to put me in your box, man. I'm an eagle, my wings will soar and my battle cry will be, " CAW CAW SCREEEEEEEEEEEECH!!!"

(I don't know what eagles sound like. )

Well, I've never been one to have much of an opinion about solo roaming builds.  I care about as much about solo roaming as a playstyle as I do about PvE.  Maybe less, actually; I'd probably rather learn to speedrun dungeons than put much energy into solo roaming.  I look at everything through the lens of group play, but not necessarily organised groups.  You started this off with an anecdote about using it in team play and comments about team support from the Warhorn... If this is supposed to be a solo roaming build, then I retract my previous comments and have no further opinion on the matter.

[Biff Rangoon]

Slein Jinn, on 19 May 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

I actually do run Shoutbow in WvW a pretty significant proportion of the relatively little time I spend in WvW.  I've been running it with full zerker gear and cheap Pirate runes just because that's what I happen to have on the character; I probably have the resources to put more appropriate gear on her, but I'm in chipmunk mode until we see where the chips fall with all the upcoming changes.  Even with that far from optimal gear setup, I can clear a camp in about 30-40 seconds, and I could probably improve my speed flipping if I cared to invest the mental energy into it.  I've won nearly every 1v1 I've come across in WvW--I remember one loss to a very decent Power Ranger who kited well, but I've killed a few Power Rangers, too, and they're about as close to a hard counter as there is for Shoutbow... I'm probably about 8-0 against other Warriors in WvW, most of them Hammer/GS.  

First, I feel you on the gear front. As mentioned, that's what's in the way of my mesmer training program atm. Second, can we arrange a time where you show me how you're clearing a camp that fast with that build? It's not that I don't believe you, but I don't understand how you can do it in 30-40s using a zerk bow and sword as your damage sources. I'd also like to see you in some fights with it, specifically when you're up against a lot of cc (1v1s sure, but also normal stuff you see in wvw). I'd be there too, so it's not as though I'm asking you to handle 1vx or anything. Unless you've got a warrior on CD or GoM, I won't be able to fight you directly in wvw, and pvp arenas just aren't the same, so some real life field testing may be the better way to go.

Slein Jinn, on 19 May 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

All that said, I don't think Shoutbow is an optimal WvW roaming build right now.  I play it because I don't really care about WvW roaming, I really enjoy the build, and it's my main in sPvP.  It has the same problem a lot of Warrior builds have--vulnerability to kiting--but it has a worse case of it than many of them do.  My point, though, is that the problems with Shouts in WvW isn't the Shouts themselves.  Shouts are unquestionably stronger than Stances.  The issue is that, for most popular roaming weapon sets, you can't get all the traits you need to make everything else work properly while running Shouts.  But that's soon to be changing; with the upcoming trait changes, you're going to see Shouts with basically every weapon set.  And anyway, you're running a build here where you could effectively get Shouts almost for free.

How are they kiting you with a bow and a s+wh?! I always assumed that was one of the only routes for a warrior to not get kited! And, yeah, I feel the same way about the update. I'm actually looking forward to trying out a variety of build options that open up with it. Should be fun.

Slein Jinn, on 19 May 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Well, I've never been one to have much of an opinion about solo roaming builds.  I care about as much about solo roaming as a playstyle as I do about PvE.  Maybe less, actually; I'd probably rather learn to speedrun dungeons than put much energy into solo roaming.  I look at everything through the lens of group play, but not necessarily organised groups.  You started this off with an anecdote about using it in team play and comments about team support from the Warhorn... If this is supposed to be a solo roaming build, then I retract my previous comments and have no further opinion on the matter.

No need to retract, but what about my battlecry? That has to count as a powerful shout, and Anet better include it in the upcoming changes! But roaming's a blast, man, you should give it a shot especially at this tier. People say it's dead and that it can't be done, but it can if you're at all into harassing the enemy till they cry "mommy!"

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

How are they kiting you with a bow and a s+wh?! I always assumed that was one of the only routes for a warrior to not get kited!

Well, for one, Swoop radically outdistances Savage Leap, plus it's extremely difficult to dodge Point Blank Shot in melee range.  The big thing about the matchup with Power Ranger, though, is that, outside of your Combustive Shot radius, they can generally afford to trade; you need Combustive Shot pressure to out-trade a lot of classes, and a Ranger never needs to come into your Combustive Shot.  If something like a Thief or Guardian tries to kite you, you can out-trade their ranged attacks with Longbow, so they have to melee on your terms, which means you can fight inside Combustive Shot, and that enables you to trade melee poke; basically with LB+S/Wh, you don't have to worry much about being kited by in-out builds.  But Rangers can just stay out and out-trade you.  They have to be really good at kiting to do it, but unless you can force them to fight in a confined space, they can kite you.  

"Trading" is one of the most important things to consider when looking at 1v1 matchups.  Who benefits from trading under what conditions, and who is better able to force conditions where trading is favourable?  It's not the only factor, of course--trading applies to damage you're tanking, and you're obviously going to be avoiding at least some of your opponent's damage--but it is a big one, especially for builds without a lot of burst.  Even S/D Acro Thieves will be trading sometimes.  Warrior builds with a Longbow are generally at least even if not favoured against virtually any melee build.  But if you can out-trade the Longbow at range, then you can force the Warrior out of the Combustive Shot, and at that point, trading isn't generally favourable to the Warrior.

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But roaming's a blast, man, you should give it a shot especially at this tier. People say it's dead and that it can't be done, but it can if you're at all into harassing the enemy till they cry "mommy!"

I disagree emphatically.  I've done plenty of it, and my attitude toward it reaches "seething hatred" within about ten minutes every time.

[Ehm C Hammer]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Don't try to put me in your box, man. I'm an eagle, my wings will soar and my battle cry will be, " CAW CAW SCREEEEEEEEEEEECH!!!"

(I don't know what eagles sound like. )

I am a peacock captain, u gotta let me fly!!!!!
what movie?
anyone?
anyone?

[cassy]

Biff Rangoon, on 19 May 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

First, I feel you on the gear front. As mentioned, that's what's in the way of my mesmer training program atm. Second, can we arrange a time where you show me how you're clearing a camp that fast with that build? It's not that I don't believe you, but I don't understand how you can do it in 30-40s using a zerk bow and sword as your damage sources.

Actually if you guys, or someone could come up with a video I would appreciate it.  People have been asking about how to clear camps, towers, and champions on warriors . . .  and I can't really give them an answer.    Especially if the ask me how to do it faster.

[Biff Rangoon]

cassy, on 10 June 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

Actually if you guys, or someone could come up with a video I would appreciate it.  People have been asking about how to clear camps, towers, and champions on warriors . . .  and I can't really give them an answer. Especially if the ask me how to do it faster.

I think Slein's rarely playing when I am these days, on the NA servers anyway, so we haven't actually met up to try this.

That being said, Fraani/Aduah put together a detailed camp guide not long ago that I think Ultra added to the wvw sticky post. Also, if anyone wants to see or record me clearing unupgraded camps in under 40s with any of several warrior builds I'd be happy to oblige. But there's not much to it really, and some classes are better at it than others:

• Get a high damage build and weapon sets (still not sure how Slein does it with s/lb)
  
• Find a spot in the camp where you can break line of sight, forcing the entire camp (especially the ranged scouts) to your location
  
• Start your high dps rotations as soon as the camp starts reaching you
  
• Pop your stability skill as soon as a guard arrives (they shield bash first) or you see the claimer bring that hammer up
  
• Pop Berserker Stance (if a warrior) as soon as a scout puts up a smoke field (Black Powder) so you aren't blinded. If you don't have something to clear the blinds, move out of the field and break line of site to restack
  
• Do as much damage as fast you possibly can
  
• Interrupt their heals if you have an aoe or cleaving interrupt, or just the claimer's if you have one interrupt

That's obviously a very warrior-centric account, but the principle is the same for any speed clear. The goal is to burn down as many as possible before they can really do any damage to you.

If they behave unpredictably, or you screw something up, break line of site again to give yourself a chance to heal, set them up again, or just to move out of the Black Powder. BP kills your dps like nothing else, and the longer they live the faster you'll die.

Upgraded camps, towers, and keeps obviously take longer to solo. Camps with caravan guards you want to kill the dolys fast (two dead dolys = six fewer things hitting you, blinding you, stunning you, and knocking you down). Fully upgraded camps require pulling bite sized chunks, or pulling them all, dropping damage and getting out before they start hitting you too much, breaking line of sight again, rinse and repeat.

I've had fewer opportunities to solo towers and keeps (usually can't be bothered to build siege on my own, take down a wall, etc). For towers, I tend to group them up like in a camp to kill everyone but the lord quickly, then use objects like ramps, columns, etc. to force the lord to reposition to attack, which gives me more opportunity to hit him while he's not hitting me. Same with keeps, but there's more people trying to kill you, so I find you have to reposition more often to whittle them down without getting greased.

[matthen]

Zerk LB/GS clears camps fast, not sure about 30s... but fast. Pull camp. Fight in LB fire field to clear blinds. This is key. Use LB2,3&4 when mobs are clumped up and at short range. This is also key. Sword/warhorn stacks more might than GS, and FT hits multiple targets... not sure if it is faster than GS2,3 on walled mobs, but it's plenty fast.