51 replies to this topic

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 30 June 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Why Healing Signet instead of To The Limit? From what I've been coming across, I'd be worried about getting bursted down because you have no blocks or escape. Bursty mesmers and pew pew rangers abound.

The sustain isn't as good, and sustain is pretty much everything.  You're tanky enough that it'll take an organised burst to one-shot you in the first place, and you've got Defy Pain for burst negation as well; after that, it comes down to sustain.  It's also a very "busy" build already, and using a heal with a full 1s cast time takes away from time you could spend doing other things.  Plus interrupts are at an all-time high right now, including a ton of Mesmers waiting to fuck you over with Power Block; having a viable option to run a passive heal is in general a pretty big advantage in and of itself.  

Slein Jinn, on 30 June 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Well, I was messing about a bit with builds, and it might still be possible to run Shouts solo in WvW by utilising a mix of Celestial and Zealot stats... possibly--but probably not--tossing in a piece or two of Shaman's/Apothecary's/Cleric's.  Not sure exactly what'd look like, but something along these lines.  I have full Zealot's on my Guardian that I can borrow, so some time when I feel like caring about WvW, I'll do some experimenting.

I've been putting in some time on Cleric's Ham-Shout-Bow in sPvP recently.  I chat with Wilson Storm (a pretty entertaining streamer and quite mechanically solid Warrior) a lot, and I had him playing around with it yesterday; in between crying about playing something tanky/supportish, his comments were to the effect that he was shocked at how sustainable it was and found it to be quite strong, too.  I need to put in some more time and get my Hammer mechanics up to par before I can really fairly evaluate it--I never really played Hammer when you had to run one-dimensional boring-as-fuck Stances with it--but I think that if there's a build that can keep Warrior in the meta, it'll be something along those lines.  I put in some WvW time on the Cele/Zealot version today on my EU account--the current Deso/FSP/Gandara matchup is the closest WvW matchup I've ever seen--and had pretty good results.  If anything, it's a better build in WvW than it is in sPvP, because Zealot stats are ridiculously underrated and work really well in builds like this.  It flips camps with ease, and I did well in 1v1's, probably most notably coming out on top in a marathon against a condi PU Mesmer.  And, as I've said, I still have a lot of room for improvement in actually landing my shit on Hammer.

[matthen]

Never been a big fan of hammer/longbow builds in WvW roaming. However, I would be interested in some thoughts on target defensive stats for a shout-based build... in other words, what's the minimum you need before you can focus on offensive stats? I am thinking of 1- to 5-man group fights.

[Slein Jinn]

matthen, on 02 July 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

Never been a big fan of hammer/longbow builds in WvW roaming. However, I would be interested in some thoughts on target defensive stats for a shout-based build... in other words, what's the minimum you need before you can focus on offensive stats? I am thinking of 1- to 5-man group fights.

It depends on what weapons you're going to run, what else you have in your comp, whether you're running the Defense line or another more offensive line, etc.  I play Longbow just because I don't really give a shit about roaming in WvW, but it's great for flipping camps and shit anyway, and as an sPvP'er, a Warrior without a Longbow is about as hard to fathom as playing a Thief without a Shortbow.  It works, but I don't think it's optimal.  

Aside from Healing Power, the situational weighting of defensive vs. offensive stat balance doesn't really function any differently for Shout builds than it does for Stance builds.  You could go 100% full Zealot if you really wanted to--you wouldn't be tanky at all, but you'd have really high sustain--which might make for a rather interesting Hammer+GS roamer or whatever.  Find the desired balance of defensive stats by adding in Celestial or Cleric's pieces until you hit the stat range you're looking for.  I wouldn't settle for less than 700-800 Healing Power, and the Healing Power scaling is really high, so the more the merrier.

[Liric]

I'm finding the longbow to remain useful for roaming in a hybrid build without even running the new Tactics line.

[matthen]

I have roamed using long bow off and on for the last year and a half. I just haven't liked it with hammer. To me, Hammer/Longbow had always seemed better for fighting in smaller areas... It worked well inside camps and at lord's rooms, but too immobile in other circumstances. As a result, my roaming builds had evolved to use either mainhand sword or greatsword as one of the weapon sets.

With the increase in range on the longbow and the decrease in mobility on the greatsword, I may have to revisit this

[Biff Rangoon]

matthen, on 04 July 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

I have roamed using long bow off and on for the last year and a half. I just haven't liked it with hammer. To me, Hammer/Longbow had always seemed better for fighting in smaller areas... It worked well inside camps and at lord's rooms, but too immobile in other circumstances. As a result, my roaming builds had evolved to use either mainhand sword or greatsword as one of the weapon sets.

With the increase in range on the longbow and the decrease in mobility on the greatsword, I may have to revisit this

I don't know the best approach with longbow... I haven't used it much in wvw, tbh. But it seems to me it would work well with gs for some crazy might stacking and sharing (str-tac-dis) or with sword(s) for some stronger condi pressure. Either one could be run as hybrid.

I don't understand the implications of the condi changes to the bow because I haven't used it much. Not sure how much condi damage you need to make the burn worthwhile.

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 04 July 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

I don't know the best approach with longbow... I haven't used it much in wvw, tbh. But it seems to me it would work well with gs for some crazy might stacking and sharing (str-tac-dis) or with sword(s) for some stronger condi pressure. Either one could be run as hybrid.

Longbow+Greatsword is definitely effective--it was always the go-to zerker Warrior setup in EU, though NA has traditionally favoured Hammer+Greatsword--but... what "crazy might stacking"?  Lack of Might stacking is one of the major reasons I've never much liked Longbow+Greatsword vs. Longbow+Hammer or Longbow+Sword/Warhorn.  Even if you sacrifice the Defense line to go for Forceful Greatsword in Strength, you're going to be running lighter on Might stacks than you would with another weapon set in most practical situations, and I can't see how it could be worthwhile to sacrifice Defense for Strength, anyway.  

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I don't understand the implications of the condi changes to the bow because I haven't used it much. Not sure how much condi damage you need to make the burn worthwhile.

If you mean Combustive Shot, well, it's always been viable as a Power skill; it gains a lot from adding condi damage to be sure, but Longbow in a zerker build works just fine.  If you're referring to the Burning Arrows trait, well, the value of that relative to Shrug It Off is debatable and depends on the individual matchup.  It definitely has the potential to make the difference between being favoured or disadvantaged in trading ranged poke, but Shrug It Off is a pretty nice chunk of sustain, and it's also party support.

[Biff Rangoon]

Slein Jinn, on 04 July 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Longbow+Greatsword is definitely effective--it was always the go-to zerker Warrior setup in EU, though NA has traditionally favoured Hammer+Greatsword--but... what "crazy might stacking"?  Lack of Might stacking is one of the major reasons I've never much liked Longbow+Greatsword vs. Longbow+Hammer or Longbow+Sword/Warhorn.  Even if you sacrifice the Defense line to go for Forceful Greatsword in Strength, you're going to be running lighter on Might stacks than you would with another weapon set in most practical situations, and I can't see how it could be worthwhile to sacrifice Defense for Strength, anyway.  

Yeah, I was mostly talking about Forceful Greatsword (for the stacking) combined with Phalanx Strength (for the sharing), and then the little bit from AC on combustive. As I said, I haven't looked at the longbow much so wasn't sure if the lb trait in Tactics was worth it or not. If it was, you're in Tactics, and PS is right there.

But what weapons would give you more might using Defense instead of a gs with Strength? I mean, one blast finisher on hammer or horn and that's it, no?  

That Combustive doesn't proc Berserker's Power is the only thing giving me pause on the Strength line and, even then, it's not really an issue. True, you'd lose CI, which with lb is a crazy good trait. But I've actually run a few builds without CI since the patch and am doing pretty well on the condi management front.

But if Defense comes out as objectively better when paired with a longbow, and hammer isn't required, it sounds like Matt's in good shape regardless. Gs works well, and sword will give him just as much mobility if not more.

Slein Jinn, on 04 July 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

If you mean Combustive Shot, well, it's always been viable as a Power skill; it gains a lot from adding condi damage to be sure, but Longbow in a zerker build works just fine.  If you're referring to the Burning Arrows trait, well, the value of that relative to Shrug It Off is debatable and depends on the individual matchup.  It definitely has the potential to make the difference between being favoured or disadvantaged in trading ranged poke, but Shrug It Off is a pretty nice chunk of sustain, and it's also party support.

I was wondering about both, yeah. I know CS does alright direct damage if someone stands in it, but it's never felt that strong to me with zerk (if I ignored the burn). AS plus the might were always the main attraction to me, and just having a ranged weapon.

Would you say Rampager gear is the best choice (short of Sinister) for an lb/x build?

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 04 July 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah, I was mostly talking about Forceful Greatsword (for the stacking) combined with Phalanx Strength (for the sharing), and then the little bit from AC on combustive. As I said, I haven't looked at the longbow much so wasn't sure if the lb trait in Tactics was worth it or not. If it was, you're in Tactics, and PS is right there.

Forceful Greatsword & Phalanx Strength is a PvE build.  There are much stronger ways to build for WvW.  Maybe it could be okay on a midline destroyer build for zergbusting, but Might is pretty abundant in that context these days anyway, so I can't really see it being great there either.  

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But what weapons would give you more might using Defense instead of a gs with Strength? I mean, one blast finisher on hammer or horn and that's it, no?  

Warhorn also comes with Sword, which gives you a Fire Shield from the leap finisher.  But one Blast Finisher is more consistent Might stacking than you're going to get from Forceful Greatsword in small-scale combat.  One Blast Finisher on a Fire Field is three Might stacks for twenty seconds, so Earthshaker is going to sustain around six Might stacks by itself.  To match that with Greatsword, you have to land a critical hit every 0.8 seconds.  Good luck with that.  

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That Combustive doesn't proc Berserker's Power is the only thing giving me pause on the Strength line and, even then, it's not really an issue. True, you'd lose CI, which with lb is a crazy good trait. But I've actually run a few builds without CI since the patch and am doing pretty well on the condi management front.

Cleansing Ire isn't just condition removal, it's also Adrenaline generation.  But moreover, it's not just Cleansing Ire, it's also Adrenal Health, which is a pretty big chunk of your sustain, not to mention the other nice extras you get along the way in the Defense line.  If you want to go Strength, then you're probably looking at a Strength/Defense/Discipline stance build.  

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But if Defense comes out as objectively better when paired with a longbow, and hammer isn't required, it sounds like Matt's in good shape regardless. Gs works well, and sword will give him just as much mobility if not more.

Defense and Discipline are pretty much the strongest lines for Warrior at this point--it'll be really hard to build without them.  It's like with Thief where you're looking at basically always running Deadly Arts and Trickery, with just the third line being changed to fit the build.  I was really looking forward to some builds without Defense before this patch was released, but with Shouts nerfed, it just doesn't seem to be possible to get enough sustain without Defense to justify it--if you want to build for more offensive ability, it's probably better to just get it from the gear.  

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I was wondering about both, yeah. I know CS does alright direct damage if someone stands in it, but it's never felt that strong to me with zerk (if I ignored the burn). AS plus the might were always the main attraction to me, and just having a ranged weapon.

I don't know what "AS" is, but it comes back to what I was saying a while back about trading.  There are tons of matchups where you can trade favourably with Combustive Shot, but you can't without it.  That allows you to exert a lot of influence over the fight.  Against builds that can't out-trade your ranged poke, it puts you in a dominant position, but even against builds that can out-trade you at range, it still lets you manipulate the positioning, buy time, etc.  And Longbow has more than just Combustive Shot, too.  Fan of Fire does a lot of damage at melee range on a very short cooldown.  Arcing Arrow is one of the heaviest hitters in the Warrior arsenal, and also provides Might stacking regardless of what the weapon swap brings.  Plus you've got a great ranged Immobilise and a very usable Blind.  It's a strong all around utility weapon.  

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Would you say Rampager gear is the best choice (short of Sinister) for an lb/x build?

Longbow works with basically anything.  It's a utility weapon with very hybridised damage.  In general, I'd run whatever works best for the rest of your build.  In sPvP, I run Longbow with a Cleric's Amulet and Hammer or with a Settler's Amulet and Sword+Warhorn or with a Marauder's Amulet and Greatsword.  It works in all of those contexts.  My preference for Warrior in WvW right now is the Celestial/Zealot mix I mentioned previously.

[Biff Rangoon]

Slein Jinn, on 04 July 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

One Blast Finisher on a Fire Field is three Might stacks for twenty seconds, so Earthshaker is going to sustain around six Might stacks by itself.  To match that with Greatsword, you have to land a critical hit every 0.8 seconds.  Good luck with that.  

  20... seconds?! Oh man, I never bothered to look it up and always thought it was way less than that... like 5-10s at most. Ok, this makes a huge difference. I'm glad we had this chat.

Slein Jinn, on 04 July 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Longbow works with basically anything.  It's a utility weapon with very hybridised damage.  In general, I'd run whatever works best for the rest of your build.  In sPvP, I run Longbow with a Cleric's Amulet and Hammer or with a Settler's Amulet and Sword+Warhorn or with a Marauder's Amulet and Greatsword.  It works in all of those contexts.  My preference for Warrior in WvW right now is the Celestial/Zealot mix I mentioned previously.

AS should have been AA... I had Arcing Shot in my head, probably because I don't use longbow much. But it's good to know about lb's versatility. I currently have two zerk sets, a soldiers, and a rabid (from a condi build I ran two years ago)... with my current moratorium on equipment purchase until the dust settles, I guess I'll focus on other weapons or maybe just use the zerk with strength runes if I really want to run lb.

Unlike Matt, I actually like hammer. That Warrior Sprint pretty much comes with Discipline as default, I'm not as worried about land speed in wvw as I used to be, so it's definitely a possibility for me.

[matthen]

I like hammer... a lot...  just not with bow (pre-patch). I have run hammer more than any other weapon on my warrior. With bow, however, I like GS and sword+horn/shield/sword. I have messed around with all the bow/sword weapon combos as both condi and power. Not sure how they all shake out in the current game

Currently, I have reasonably effective LB/GS and Ham/GS builds, so I just use those when roaming WvW. Been thinking about a condi warrior build, but haven't been in the mood to run condi lately.

[Slein Jinn]

Slein Jinn, on 02 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

I've been putting in some time on Cleric's Ham-Shout-Bow in sPvP recently.  I chat with Wilson Storm (a pretty entertaining streamer and quite mechanically solid Warrior) a lot, and I had him playing around with it yesterday; in between crying about playing something tanky/supportish, his comments were to the effect that he was shocked at how sustainable it was and found it to be quite strong, too.  

I went ahead and tossed this up on Metabattle tonight (which took way longer than planned, hence my being awake at three in the fucking morning ).  Everyone feel free to get in on the discussion page there.

I've been having really good results with it.