51 replies to this topic

[Slein Jinn]

I don't do anything groundbreaking.  I'm very experienced and mechanically sound on Shoutbow in sPvP, and those basic mechanics carry over, but I don't care nearly enough about WvW to have invested much time in seeking perfection at that specific task, so I'm sure someone who wanted to could refine what I do further in the particular context of flipping camps.  

Basically, I typically pull the camp with a blind on the Guard and LoS the Throw Bolas so that doesn't clear my blind, that way I don't get hit with Shield Bash.  If you do eat the Shield Bash, it's not the end of the world, though, because you have such a low-cooldown Stunbreak on Shake It Off.  It's also possible to Immobilise the Guard with Pin Down right as he starts the Shield Bash, causing it to fizzle.  (When I flip a sentry, I usually do blind the Throw Bolas since there's no LoS and then negate the Shield Bash with Pin Down, but here I'd rather save the Pin Down for cleave, as explained below.)  

After the camp is pulled to LoS, I use Shouts and the piercing attacks on Longbow (Fan of Fire and Pin Down) to immediately fill my Adrenaline and get a Combustive Shot going, then I land a weapon-swap-Arcing Arrow with my Sigil of Intelligence, finish the Might stacking rotation with Call to Arms and Savage Leap, and by that point I'm already ready to Final Thrust to completely finish off one or two of the NPC's.  From there I focus on the Supervisor, as everything else is just dying to cleave, and if I'm running Fear Me (it may be more optimal to take On My Mark in that context, but Fear Me is more optimal in most contexts, and like I said, I haven't made any effort to optimise camp flipping), I try to make sure I get Supervisor's heal with it.  Other than that, I just do basically the same maximum-DPS rotation I would use for something like 1v1'ing a Cele Ele on-node, and make sure to blind or dodge the Supervisor's Backbreakers.  

I don't always do this, but it's probably optimal to swap immediately to Sword after blinding the Guard so that you can get the Adrenaline and the Geomancy/Doom procs from weapon swapping to Longbow as the camp is pulled.  You'll be stuck in Sword for a second or two before you can start your Combustive Shot at the start of the fight, but Sword cleaves well enough that the 10 Adrenaline you'd get for two weapon swaps plus the Geomancy/Doom procs are likely worth it.  

Clearing the camp is really easy.  How quickly you finish is mostly determined by how quickly you kill the Supervisor.

[Biff Rangoon]

matthen, on 10 June 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

Zerk LB/GS clears camps fast, not sure about 30s... but fast. Pull camp. Fight in LB fire field to clear blinds. This is key. Use LB2,3&4 when mobs are clumped up and at short range. This is also key. Sword/warhorn stacks more might than GS, and FT hits multiple targets... not sure if it is faster than GS2,3 on walled mobs, but it's plenty fast.

I'll have to get you to show me the lb/s+w approach once you're back in the saddle. While gs/lb is definitely great at clearing camps, seems to me s+w/lb suffers from the following:

• Slow initial adren gain to get Combustive Shot off
  
• One stun break and no stability vs 3+ stun/knockdowns (Slein was talking about a shout build)
  
• Time stunned and knocked down is a big reduction in dps and health... so just dodges?
  
• No interrupts to their heals unless you're willing to use Fear and blow your stacking
  
• Nothing to significantly counter the blind field except moving, which cuts into your dps more than a gs or axe build (CI won't do it)

So, yeah, tear yourself away from Hello Kitty Adventures and come show me how to speed clear with s+w/lb. I'd consider running it more in wvw (beyond group) if it could do that because it would have party support, personal sustain, decent mobility AND the sort of killing power you need to roam effectively.

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 11 June 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Slow initial adren gain to get Combustive Shot off

It has virtually instant initial adrenaline gain.  It has shouts.

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One stun break and no stability vs 3+ stun/knockdowns (Slein was talking about a shout build)

I just don't eat most of the stuns (see above).  There's zero reason you need stability to clear a camp.  I don't have much in the way of stability on basically anything I'd roam on.

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Time stunned and knocked down is a big reduction in dps and health... so just dodges?

Like I said, I just don't eat them.  If I do, I have the lowest-cooldown stunbreak in the game.  

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No interrupts to their heals unless you're willing to use Fear and blow your stacking

The only heal that matters is the supervisor, because everything else will die to cleave before you kill him anyway.  I typically Fear the supervisor's heal, and if you position things correctly, it usually stacks things more tightly rather than less, but worst case scenario you just immediately LoS things back into place losing only a second or two of cleave.  And that's if there's anything else even still alive by the time the Supervisor is trying to heal in the first place.  Not to mention that it's pretty easy to just poison the heal if you can't interrupt it; it isn't much of a setback.  

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Nothing to significantly counter the blind field except moving, which cuts into your dps more than a gs or axe build (CI won't do it)

I don't have too much trouble with it.  The scouts die really quickly in the cleave, for one thing, but moreover I just play around it.  Unlike most Warrior builds, you can do pretty much all of your cleave while moving.  You can negate a lot of it with positioning, and if nothing else, I just clear the blind with a shout at the last second during the cast on Arcing Arrow or Final Thrust--blinding anything else has minimal impact.  

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So, yeah, tear yourself away from Hello Kitty Adventures and come show me how to speed clear with s+w/lb. I'd consider running it more in wvw (beyond group) if it could do that because it would have party support, personal sustain, decent mobility AND the sort of killing power you need to roam effectively.

I'm sure something like Greatbow can do it faster, but it's plenty fast enough--faster than many classes can manage.  I really don't do anything special.  I simply apply the core Shoutbow mechanics I know well from playing so much sPvP.

[cassy]

Slein Jinn, on 11 June 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

I don't do anything groundbreaking.  . . . .

Clearing the camp is really easy.  How quickly you finish is mostly determined by how quickly you kill the Supervisor.

I have seen you and Biff fight, and you guys do so brilliantly.  A lot of people could benefit from seeing what you guys do, and how it is done.  

I recall when I was new Rimmy trying to explain how to take a camp, and it made no sense because I didn't know the game well enough.   Then I saw what he did and it helped a lot.  Now that I have been playing for a year a lot more of what he said makes sense.  The motion mechanics and dodge timings were the hardest things for me to learn and without them positioning didn't work.  Every new player is different and needs help with different things.  When we make that help available we end up with better players, and a stronger community.  It also sets the bar on what people can do.  Since I am not a great player when I say I can flip a tower or camp it encourages others to do the same.   When they see me do it I am a bit sloppy, but it still gets done, and the process is unintimidating.
(I still fall out of towers😔 )

When I look at the guides that are linked from WVW some are several years old, and mechanics as well as players have changed.  I think one of the computers here has Frapps, so I could try recording the action.  Or if someone else is willing to do it I am all for that.  Either way I think keeping guides up to date is helpful.

[Slein Jinn]

BTW, I happened upon an open, empty tower the other day, as I think a group of EBay were intending to flip it, but got called away to defend a keep before they could finish.  I casually engaged the lord room, and in the carelessly tossed-together gear on my Shoutbow, I found myself soloing the lord room more quickly and more easily than I would be able to on many of my optimally geared fully ascended characters.  Without ever having done it before or really pushing myself at all, I was able to just stroll to a clean solo cap.  The build really is extremely effective at that sort of thing.  Not having Stability was again not an issue at all, and if anything, Shake It Off was a better stunbreak than either Stability utility would have been thanks to the incredibly short cooldown.  I blinded the Cabalist's pull on engage and cleaved him down quickly, dodged the Shield Bash from the Guard, and either dodged or stunbroke the claimer's Stomps.  I was never once actually stuck in a CC.

[Biff Rangoon]

Sure, anytime. I also have a standing offer out to anyone interested in learning the ropes when it comes to roaming or the warrior class specifically. Just shoot me a pm if you see me online.

@Slein
Stability is probably more important for 100b to fully channel, which doesn't apply to you. But what about caravan guards? Surely you can't stack with those and no stability, right?

Also, don't you just have the one shout to build adrenaline in the beginning, saving your stun break and fear for when you need it?

[Slein Jinn]

Biff Rangoon, on 11 June 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

@Slein
Stability is probably more important for 100b to fully channel, which doesn't apply to you. But what about caravan guards? Surely you can't stack with those and no stability, right?

I really don't spend enough time in WvW to have definitive answers to these things, but I think generally I don't have trouble stacking with one upgraded Dolyak--I just focus the yak first--but probably I couldn't stack two.  You can pull Dolyaks out of a camp and kill them without triggering white swords, though.  Only the supervisor triggers contestion; in some camps you can even pull some of the guards (e.g. the one up front on NW camp).  You can generally play ring-around-the-rosie with LoS without really sacrificing any cleave damage to speak of, too, when you need to (e.g. hopping back and forth over a barricade or circling one of the huts in SE).  

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Also, don't you just have the one shout to build adrenaline in the beginning, saving your stun break and fest for when you need it?

I just pop whatever I need; with such short cooldowns, you can really use any of your skills really aggressively.  But with proper positioning, Fan of Fire plus Pin Down can easily be as much as 50% Adrenline with just two attacks, and don't forget about the adrenaline gain from weapon swapping and Cleansing Ire, too.

[Biff Rangoon]

Huh... good stuff. I'll have to try it out and see if I can make it work as good or better than my usual setups.

[Slein Jinn]

Random protip you may or may not know that just occurred to me to make explicit (I implicitly talked about it in a previous post):
Fear Me can be blinded.  This means that, for one, when you're blind, you can use it for the heal/adrenaline/cleanse without actually fearing mobs if you want to, but more importantly, it will clear blinds regardless of other condis on you if you use it while casting a key damage skill.  
(Why an AoE Shout can be affected by being blind I have no idea, thematically speaking, lol.)

[Biff Rangoon]

I believe when you're blind the audio switches to, "Fear me! Hello? Is anyone there?" Not so scary.

[matthen]

Well, Slein answered all the questions.

One more point... you don't need the shouts to build adrenaline on LB. LB2 at close range on multiple targets is a heap of adrenaline. At point blank, all three arrows will hit the target in front of you, and then pierce to the targets behind that.

Regarding stability, I never use it when clearing camps on my warrior... I save it for when/if opposing players show up. Better to learn how to clear camps without it, regardless of build.

[Slein Jinn]

Slein Jinn, on 11 June 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

After the camp is pulled to LoS, I use Shouts and the piercing attacks on Longbow (Fan of Fire and Pin Down) to immediately fill my Adrenaline and get a Combustive Shot going

Biff Rangoon, on 11 June 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Slow initial adren gain to get Combustive Shot off

Slein Jinn, on 11 June 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

But with proper positioning, Fan of Fire plus Pin Down can easily be as much as 50% Adrenline with just two attacks, and don't forget about the adrenaline gain from weapon swapping and Cleansing Ire, too.

matthen, on 11 June 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

One more point... you don't need the shouts to build adrenaline on LB. LB2 at close range on multiple targets is a heap of adrenaline. At point blank, all three arrows will hit the target in front of you, and then pierce to the targets behind that.

It's like nobody even reads my posts!

[Silvernis]

Slein Jinn, on 12 June 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

It's like nobody even reads my posts!

Hm? Did you say something?

I jest, I jest. I don't play my warriors much, so this has been a pretty informative thread.

[Sanji]

Slein Jinn, on 12 June 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

It's like nobody even reads my posts!

When am looking at other builds when I feel my made up ones seem not right, I look no further then the master guru.
Tho your wall of texts are daunting to get into when starting.

[Liric]

You can now burn down entire camps in seconds with Sw+Wh/Bow.

[Biff Rangoon]

Which stats are you using on your gear to do that? Also, how do you do in duels and outnumbered fights?

[matthen]

Slein Jinn, on 12 June 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

It's like nobody even reads my posts!

I read it. You just started by mentioning the trained shouts... and I wanted to make it clear that long bow adrenaline building is ridiculous even without trained shouts.

[Liric]

Biff Rangoon, on 24 June 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Which stats are you using on your gear to do that? Also, how do you do in duels and outnumbered fights?

Something of a mix. Sinister, Rabid, and a couple of other oddities. I was using Arms/Tactics/Discipline but am very much considering using Defense over Arms now. I basically do something similar to what Slein said. Haven't timed it but stuff like the camp groups don't last long at all.

1v1 is about as easy as it was before but outnumbered fights have become noticeably more difficult due to the insane damage everyone is doing, despite reasonably high toughness. I expect it will become manageable again after Anet starts bashing everything with the nerf bat though. I'm not sure any class in particular is great at outnumbered fights at the moment without using stealth or some other disengage to manage it. :/

EDIT: Yeah, Defense is way more comfortable at this state in the game. For me at least.

[Slein Jinn]

Well, I was messing about a bit with builds, and it might still be possible to run Shouts solo in WvW by utilising a mix of Celestial and Zealot stats... possibly--but probably not--tossing in a piece or two of Shaman's/Apothecary's/Cleric's.  Not sure exactly what'd look like, but something along these lines.  I have full Zealot's on my Guardian that I can borrow, so some time when I feel like caring about WvW, I'll do some experimenting.

[Biff Rangoon]

Slein Jinn, on 30 June 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Well, I was messing about a bit with builds, and it might still be possible to run Shouts solo in WvW by utilising a mix of Celestial and Zealot stats... possibly--but probably not--tossing in a piece or two of Shaman's/Apothecary's/Cleric's.  Not sure exactly what'd look like, but something along these lines.  I have full Zealot's on my Guardian that I can borrow, so some time when I feel like caring about WvW, I'll do some experimenting.

Why Healing Signet instead of To The Limit? From what I've been coming across, I'd be worried about getting bursted down because you have no blocks or escape. Bursty mesmers and pew pew rangers abound.