72 replies to this topic

[Grav]

Following on from Fraani's new engineer thread, I'd like to do the same for the mesmer.

I'm at work right now so I can't give specifics, but until now my main mesmer (Grav Tate) has been power/phantasm-based, running Domination/Dueling/Inspiration.  The Inspiration line tended the build towards phantasms and included what I have considered the essential Mender's Purity trait (condi removal on heal), and of course until now has come with vitality and healing power buffs.

Now that the associated stat buffs for each line are gone, that's one less reason for me to continue with Inspiration straight-up.  By the same reasoning, the condition damage stat buff that comes with Illusions is no longer useless to me as it no longer exists.  That, combined with my growing confidence in shattering in general (I never shattered for a long time but have gotten into it more with experience), leads me to consider swapping out Inspiration for Illusions and going full power/shatter mode.

But what else do I lose from dropping Inspiration?  Well, no more phantasm damage buff for starters.  But one could argue that if I'm going shatter, then there's less point in a phantasm damage bonus as they won't be hanging around for very long anymore anyway, so I'm cool with that.

That just leaves the lack of Mender's Purity.  This week in PvP I've been trying out power shatter variations and generally I like the style a lot, but I do find myself missing the extra condi removal that Mender's Purity used to provide me.  Mantra of Concentration is generally sufficient until I run into aids necros and engis, who will wear me down unless I can burst them faster than they can kill me, and this isn't often the case.

So mesmers, how do you plan on countering enemy condition builds, or alternatively should I just ~deal with it~ by avoiding anyone that smells of condis and keep going with power/shatter regardless?

[Grav]

The other area in which I could possibly see a change is my off-hand vs my runes.  On Grav Tate (my power mes), I use sword/focus with the focus traited for reduced cooldown + runes of the Pack to give me more speed around the place, and of course Into The Void is always hilarious.  But on Grav Tyme (condi mes), I use sword/torch and get my speed from Traveller's runes, which seems OK as well.

So for Tate, I'm considering swapping out the focus for pistol and Pack runes for Traveller's, in addition to the Inspiration->Illusions line change I described above.  I know I'd miss into The Void, but can pistol+Traveller's be proven to be statistically superior to focus+Pack?  I'd like to be sure before I splash out on another set of runes and craft another ascended weapon.

[Blackthorn]

Grav, on 23 June 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

So for Tate, I'm considering swapping out the focus for pistol and Pack runes for Traveller's, in addition to the Inspiration->Illusions line change I described above.  I know I'd miss into The Void, but can pistol+Traveller's be proven to be statistically superior to focus+Pack?  I'd like to be sure before I splash out on another set of runes and craft another ascended weapon.

Idk about statistically superior, but staff and sword/pistol with Traveler's was the makings of a really strong shatter build before today (usually with zerk/assassin's gear). I haven't played around with anything other than gs and sword/torch yet, since it's the build I play the most (best as a gank build, but certainly capable of winning duels). We were messing around in our PvP room for a bit, dueling/experimenting. I think the strongest version for general purposes we worked out is (keeping in mind everyone automatically has illusionary persona):

Illusions: The Pledge - Shattered Strength - Master of Fragmentation
Dueling: Phantasmal Fury - Blinding Dissipation - Deceptive Evasion
Domination: Rending Shatter - Shattered Concentration - Mental Anguish

Blinding dissipation is really strong. Caused a lot of d/d thieves to miss their CnD which usually lead to their death. Master of Fragmentation is also really strong. Not set in stone, but it seemed to work well in PvP and WvW tonight. I'll play around with it for a bit more, than see about working out a new sword/sword and staff shatterlock build.

Rev came up with an evil PU shatter power build. We wanted to experiment with having a PU mes in party, and I refused to be the baddie. It seemed to work out well. Having the extra long veils and mass invis's for all of us was OP.  He'll probably end up posting it here if he finds it to be viable.

Edit: Oh, and as for condi clear, the pledge (formerly cleansing conflagration) and arcane thievery provided decent survivability for my shatter build. But, I find that arcane thievery is a wonky skill that doesn't seem to work properly half the time. Amazing life-saver when it does, though.

[Slein Jinn]

Mesmer got insanely buffed, possibly even to the point that it actually is overpowered and will need to be toned down--and almost nothing that people bitch about being "OP" ever actually needs changing.  It is one of the only classes for which these changes are purely power gains--there is zero tradeoff compared to the old build.  

You've actually got a few genuine options on Mesmer right now, and which one is optimal will depend somewhat on how the meta evolves overall, but may well remain somewhat situational.  There are some constants, though--THIS should pretty much be the backbone of any good Mesmer, and from there you have a few choices to make.  

The first question is whether to run Staff or Sword+Torch for the weapon swap.  Neither one is universally superior--Staff is better for fighting bunker builds, Sword+Torch is huge for mitigating the Thief hard-counter, Staff gives you better mobility, Sword+Torch gives you better disengage, Staff gives you more pressure, Sword+Torch gives you more burst, etc.  Both are strong weapon sets, and have some strong synergy with new traits.  If I had to pick one weapon set to use in every situation, I'd go with Sword+Torch because Thief, but it really depends on the whole picture.  

The next question is what to run for your third trait line.  The strongest option here may simply be Chaos, which basically preserves the gameplay principles of the old Shatter build, and just adds a ton of power on top of it.  If you do run Chaos, exactly what traits you take will depend upon which weapon you've opted to run.  With Sword+Torch, you'll probably go Prismatic Understanding, whereas with Staff you'll probably go Chaotic Interruption.  You really don't need to force condition removal into a Mesmer build; Mesmers are slippery enough to avoid getting loaded up with conditions from tanky, attritional condition builds, and have more than enough damage to kill more bursty condition builds first.  In skirmishes, you just have to avoid getting loaded with conditions, and in team fights, trust your support to do its job.  Even in sPvP, where taking Portal for your third utility is 100% non-negotiably mandatory, traditionally leaving Mesmers with literally zero condition removal, Shatter Mesmer has long been one of the few builds that can actually win 1v1's against Engineers--Mesmer is even advantaged in that matchup.  In WvW, where the fights are less controlled and you're more likely to get hit with random conditions from nowhere, you also have the freedom to take Mantra of Resolve to afford you serviceable condition removal.  

You can, however, realistically still do quite a lot of damage with a surprising amount of sustain by going into Inspiration like THIS.  You can even go all-in and take the Mantra heal like THIS for all the condition removal you could really need with some party support and even more sustain, but in team fights, Mantra of Recovery is just too easy to interrupt and could cause you more problems than it's worth.  

The Illusions tree is definitely not central to Shatter builds any more.  The only way I can see running Illusions would be if you run a Staff with hybrid gear--Celestial or Carrion or the like--and take the condi-shatter traits, something like THIS.  That actually has a lot of potential to be strong in 1v1's and shit, but I don't expect it to displace pure Power for team fights.

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 24 June 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

The Illusions tree is definitely not central to Shatter builds any more.

Agreed, but it most approximates the former shatter meta while still making it much stronger. I really like master of fragmentation for small group play, especially the added effects on the last three shatter skills. The extra crit chance on mind wrack has always been good, especially if you run crit sigils (I've been rolling Fire and Air on my greatsword as of late). I think you're right though, most people will choose chaos or inspiration for the survivability (notably from PU or Restorative Illusions, respectively). I fought Rev's PU shatter build a couple of times and it was a monster. I beat it once, but only because I out-cheese'd him and managed to find a hiding spot to wait out his stealth, which is much harder to do in WvW. I've a feeling PU shatter will be fairly common place. In the old world, it's like running 0/4/6/0/6 for deceptive evasion, PU, and IP, which was one of those things people would bring up every so often as, "How stupidly OP would it be if that were possible." Now it is, and even stronger than we imagined.

I'm going to continue to roll illusions for now. Better burst than before, better survivability than before, and other than Rev's PU build, didn't really come across anything that I felt disadvantaged against 1v1 (once I got the traits set). Jury is still out, though.

[Slein Jinn]

Blackthorn, on 24 June 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Agreed, but it most approximates the former shatter meta while still making it much stronger.

Yes--it works.  But like I said in the Engineer thread, trying to "approximate" your old build is the wrong way to approach this.  Start over and build the strongest build you can.  Power Shatter with Illusions is definitely not it.  

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I really like master of fragmentation for small group play, especially the added effects on the last three shatter skills. The extra crit chance on mind wrack has always been good, especially if you run crit sigils (I've been rolling Fire and Air on my greatsword as of late).

Master of Fragmentation is a nice trait, but it's basically the only significant Power Shatter trait in the whole line--the minors are especially irrelevant.  In order to be worthwhile, Master of Fragmentation would have to be strong enough to be build-defining, and it isn't... not by a long shot.  The pure Power Shatter build now is definitely Domination/Duelling/Chaos--it's clearly stronger.  

Quote

I think you're right though, most people will choose chaos or inspiration for the survivability (notably from PU or Restorative Illusions, respectively). I fought Rev's PU shatter build a couple of times and it was a monster. I beat it once, but only because I out-cheese'd him and managed to find a hiding spot to wait out his stealth, which is much harder to do in WvW. I've a feeling PU shatter will be fairly common place. In the old world, it's like running 0/4/6/0/6 for deceptive evasion, PU, and IP, which was one of those things people would bring up every so often as, "How stupidly OP would it be if that were possible." Now it is, and even stronger than we imagined.

I'm going to continue to roll illusions for now. Better burst than before, better survivability than before, and other than Rev's PU build, didn't really come across anything that I felt disadvantaged against 1v1 (once I got the traits set). Jury is still out, though.

The best Mesmer build right now is probably something like THIS.  It's got more damage than the old build with the same utility and pretty broken sustain on top of it.

[matthen]

Zo: the illusion recharge and shatter recharge minor traits don't strike me as irrelevant. Other trees may end up being better, but I think you are over-stating your position.

[Slein Jinn]

matthen, on 25 June 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Zo: the illusion recharge and shatter recharge minor traits don't strike me as irrelevant. Other trees may end up being better, but I think you are over-stating your position.

It comes down to incremental improvements to what's already strong vs. adding powerful new tools to a build.  Adding powerful new tools is almost always superior.  It's like pre-patch looking at Mental Torment vs. Halting Strike.

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yes--it works.  But like I said in the Engineer thread, trying to "approximate" your old build is the wrong way to approach this.  Start over and build the strongest build you can.  Power Shatter with Illusions is definitely not it.  

I'm with ya on this, but I'm talking about play style instead specific traits. Sorry for being unclear. What I listed above plays similarly to the old meta, and is much stronger. For gank, I would call it "optimal." No, the survivability isn't nearly as great as going Inspiration, but it's not bad and it has the biggest burst. It can easily win the majority of 1v1's without the, as you put it, "broken" sustain provided by Inspiration. And, PU is just a totally different play style (one that I've always found pretty dull). But, yes, in a few specific 1v1 situations, power shatter with Illusions is less optimal than Inspiration or Chaos.

Slein Jinn, on 25 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Master of Fragmentation is a nice trait, but it's basically the only significant Power Shatter trait in the whole line--the minors are especially irrelevant.  In order to be worthwhile, Master of Fragmentation would have to be strong enough to be build-defining, and it isn't... not by a long shot.  The pure Power Shatter build now is definitely Domination/Duelling/Chaos--it's clearly stronger.

I'm kinda disappointed with the minor traits in illusions, but as Matthen pointed out, the shatter recharge is nice and also contributes to survivability. The extra-duration confusion isn't horrible, I suppose, since some people will panic when they have confusion on them regardless of how much damage it actually does. But, Master of Fragmentation is more than nice. The 3s cripple on Cry of Frustration per illusion shattered and being able to hit multiple targets with Diversion - those things are no joke. As gank in WvW, these are much more useful to my party than something like restorative mantras. For fighting on points in PvP, the benefits of Inspiration are a bit more obvious, but I'm not convinced it's worth traiting for vs Illusions unless for some reason your team lacks a support build. I'll defer to you on the PvP side of things, since I haven't played a match in this new world.

[Grav]

I've decided to stick with Inspiration as my third line for the time being.  Mender's Purity + Restorative Illusions + Mantra of Resolve should cover my current condi removal concerns, and if it turns out I'm overcompensating, then I can just swap out MoR for something else instead.

[Slein Jinn]

Grav, on 26 June 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

I've decided to stick with Inspiration as my third line for the time being.  Mender's Purity + Restorative Illusions + Mantra of Resolve should cover my current condi removal concerns, and if it turns out I'm overcompensating, then I can just swap out MoR for something else instead.

You don't need Mantra of Resolve with Inspiration.  Take Mantra of Distraction, as Power Block is just stupid powerful right now.  Even Mantra of Pain would be a stronger pickup.

[Blackthorn]

So, Cro, Bay, and I met a mesmer who was running this build today. Similar to one Slein linked above, except the domination line is more tooled for shattering. Super strong, very high survivability. Bay managed to kill him on ranger (no Sic 'em), but I fought him twice and could barely do a thing against him (the extra cast on power lock is killer). It intrigued me enough to try it out in group scenarios and set the Illusions line aside for a bit. After 2 or 3 weeks of playing Dom/Dueling/Illusions, I can say it's more than viable for WvW, especially if you can compliment it with a thief or PU mesmer (though not at all necessary). We've won a lot of outnumbered fights with it, and I've been winning the majority of 1v1s I get into. However, there are some definite struggles 1v1, namely against other mesmers.  Of course that's hardly cause to abandon it, but I've been intrigued by the potential of Inspiration in small group play since the specializations were released; tonight was just kinda the kick in the butt I needed to actually try it out.

I have lots of video of the domination/dueling/illusions build in action. I'll cut it together at some point and put it up. Maybe in the weekly thread tomorrow.

Edit: Oh, also, we had a lengthy discussion about the major master traits for domination and dueling in the build I linked above. For domination, the debate was shattered concentration vs furious interruption. For dueling, evasive mirror vs. blinding dissipation.  Obviously you can conjure up specific scenarios in which one trait is much better than the other, but for general purposes? I hope to experiment with the various combinations ...

[Slein Jinn]

Evasive Mirror is better against Power Ranger; Blinding Dissipation is better against pretty much everything else.  Blinding Dissipation also helps a ton against your most difficult counter-matchup--Thieves.

[Maksyn]

Nerf mesmers.

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 09 July 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Evasive Mirror is better against Power Ranger; Blinding Dissipation is better against pretty much everything else.  Blinding Dissipation also helps a ton against your most difficult counter-matchup--Thieves.

Yeah, everyone was agreed on this. In PvP it's not a big deal because you know what you're up against before the match starts and can trait accordingly. In WvW, though, no one was sure what to be rolling for general purposes. I feel like I'm seeing at least as many lb rangers these days as I am thieves, whereas thieves used to be the master race for roamers (especially solo since it's easy to escape if you need to). I think I'm going to roll blinding dissipation for the time being, though. As long as I don't get surprised, I can quickly move in close on a ranger and force them to switch to melee (or be stupid and try to channel barrage as I burst them down)

Maksyn, on 09 July 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Nerf mesmers.

Anything specifically?  I feel like whenever I log into WvW these days, there's guaranteed to be someone complaining about PU in map chat. There's some stuff about it that is legit broken right now, e.g., if you trait PU and throw down a veil, it lasts for 6 seconds instead of four without the glamour trait. PU condition is very beatable by a good number of builds (eles and necros can still wreck them, and I've not been having much of an issue on my build either); the power/shatter version has most people feeling like a sitting duck, though. Kinda like what mesmers used to feel like 1v1 against SA thieves.

[Maksyn]

Blackthorn, on 09 July 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Yeah, everyone was agreed on this. In PvP it's not a big deal because you know what you're up against before the match starts and can trait accordingly. In WvW, though, no one was sure what to be rolling for general purposes. I feel like I'm seeing at least as many lb rangers these days as I am thieves, whereas thieves used to be the master race for roamers (especially solo since it's easy to escape if you need to). I think I'm going to roll blinding dissipation for the time being, though. As long as I don't get surprised, I can quickly move in close on a ranger and force them to switch to melee (or be stupid and try to channel barrage as I burst them down)



Anything specifically?  I feel like whenever I log into WvW these days, there's guaranteed to be someone complaining about PU in map chat. There's some stuff about it that is legit broken right now, e.g., if you trait PU and throw down a veil, it lasts for 6 seconds instead of four without the glamour trait. PU condition is very beatable by a good number of builds (eles and necros can still wreck them, and I've not been having much of an issue on my build either); the power/shatter version has most people feeling like a sitting duck, though. Kinda like what mesmers used to feel like 1v1 against SA thieves.

I'm just kidding. I've seen a lot of complaints about them on the pvp forums though. They seem to have too much of everything at the moment.

[Grav]

Slein Jinn, on 26 June 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

You don't need Mantra of Resolve with Inspiration.  Take Mantra of Distraction, as Power Block is just stupid powerful right now.  Even Mantra of Pain would be a stronger pickup.

With the benefit of a little more experience I think I agree, generally speaking.  Condi necros will have their merry way with me, but against everyone else I don't seem to need all three.

I was thinking some more about Restorative Illusions lately.  Having condi removal on shatter is all well and good, but the other shatter bonuses in other trait lines are more offensively oriented.  At times I've found myself having to think about *why* I'm shattering at any given time; am I attacking or do I need a condition removed?  The two don't always line up.

For the time being I've swapped out Restorative Illusions for Warden's Feedback, as the CD bonus on the focus gives me more swiftness uptime which is especially important in WvW where the maps are much larger, and knowing when to shatter becomes a lot easier.

My other question atm is around Harmonious Mantras.  Given that that takes the place of Deceptive Evasion in a Mantra of Recovery/Distraction build, how do shatter mesmers summon enough illusions to be able to keep shattering?  I realise that the old Illusory Persona trait is now baseline meaning I can always shatter myself, but I just feel I'm selling myself short by not having more illusions around to shatter as well?

[Silvernis]

Blackthorn, on 09 July 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Anything specifically?  I feel like whenever I log into WvW these days, there's guaranteed to be someone complaining about PU in map chat.

Because stealth is a shitty mechanic, even more so when combined with a class that's already a pain in the ass to fight. I'm not saying it's unbeatable, but it is most definitely un-fun. [/opinionstatedasfact]

[Biff Rangoon]

Blackthorn, on 09 July 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Anything specifically?  I feel like whenever I log into WvW these days, there's guaranteed to be someone complaining about PU in map chat. There's some stuff about it that is legit broken right now, e.g., if you trait PU and throw down a veil, it lasts for 6 seconds instead of four without the glamour trait. PU condition is very beatable by a good number of builds (eles and necros can still wreck them, and I've not been having much of an issue on my build either); the power/shatter version has most people feeling like a sitting duck, though. Kinda like what mesmers used to feel like 1v1 against SA thieves.

I don't understand mesmers well enough yet to know what's off, but something definitely is. I'm not so concerned about getting wrecked by mesmers of higher skill, or generally losing to people with equal skill (general build/class counters are somewhat inevitable), but I've been rolling with my mesmer more this past week and it's been ridiculously easy to kill people way more skilled than me.

In wvw, I'm running a PU shatter and would lose my mind with glee if I could turn those sorts of results (damage, defense, escape, utility) as easily or, in some cases, at all, with my warrior. Beyond wiping people I had no business wiping considering how green I am, and surviving wipes with ease while everyone around me died, last night I was able to survive on my own in garri for 5-10 mins after CD took it, while about 10 people were actively chasing me, port a group into inner to take it back, survived when they got wiped, survived another 5min chase, and got another port out for another attempt (failed because I screwed up estimating the distance).

I always found mesmer fun and had a general intent to use mine more. But the difference is so stark, I may shift my main to it because the results:effort ratio is just so much better. It's also a pity because there are good mesmers out there, like you and grav, for example, and your wins are cheapened in the minds of your opponents by my facerolling success as a scrub.

[matthen]

Just don't let yourself get trolled by PU mesmers. If they stay and fight, they can be beaten. If they repeatedly reset the fight, they can be ignored.

I do think think that they "one-up" the old D/P shadow arts for trolliness, but Anet will eventually get around to tuning them. If you enjoy that style of play in the meantime.... well, different strokes...