72 replies to this topic

[Biff Rangoon]

Well, that's the thing... I've become the PU troll, staying in fights and killing people I have no business killing. It just seems so wrong....

I do plan to switch to a non-PU shatter or, more likely, a mantra lockdown build once I'm ready to take off the PU training wheels, but still....

[Blackthorn]

Okay, as promised, a video of this build in action:



I can recommend it as part of a composition for sure. I can't recommend it for solo roaming/dueling unless you really want the challenge - there's just too many better options right now for a mesmer in those situations.

Grav, on 09 July 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

My other question atm is around Harmonious Mantras.  Given that that takes the place of Deceptive Evasion in a Mantra of Recovery/Distraction build, how do shatter mesmers summon enough illusions to be able to keep shattering?  I realise that the old Illusory Persona trait is now baseline meaning I can always shatter myself, but I just feel I'm selling myself short by not having more illusions around to shatter as well?

With this build, your adds are going to come from your skill bar (mirror blade, izerker, illusionary leap, Phantasmal Mage, decoy) in addition to two traits: desperate decoy (free auto-cast of decoy when you're hit under half health) and mental defense (casts Phantasmal Defender when you evade an attack on 30 second CD). You can easily afford to trade away deceptive evasion if you know how to  burst properly (not always waiting for three clones to shatter is part of this - don't always need them) and you're good at using power lock effectively (to mitigate big damage or interrupt survival skills, like mass invis or a heartseeker that was preceded by black power). Power return and restorative illusions provide good survivability for a total glass build, but ideally you're going to get your opponent low very quickly and then not allow them to get off the survival skills so you can finish them fast.

Silvernis, on 09 July 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Because stealth is a shitty mechanic, even more so when combined with a class that's already a pain in the ass to fight. I'm not saying it's unbeatable, but it is most definitely un-fun. [/opinionstatedasfact]

On some builds it's completely necessary. Yes, mesmers are a pain to fight because of it, but without a way to break target, the class is unplayable. Ever duel a mesmer that you were in party with? Ez pz. So, I don't think it's a shitty mechanic, but it could be implemented better for sure. That's why I think we should run mostly mesmers for the golem weekend. We should see if we can abuse PU to a point that ANet feels compelled to rethink it.

Biff Rangoon, on 11 July 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

I always found mesmer fun and had a general intent to use mine more. But the difference is so stark, I may shift my main to it because the results:effort ratio is just so much better. It's also a pity because there are good mesmers out there, like you and grav, for example, and your wins are cheapened in the minds of your opponents by my facerolling success as a scrub.

I was gonna message you in game the other day because I've noticed you've been playing more mesmer, was curious what you were running. I have mixed feelings on PU. On one hand, the playerbase in general hates it and writes off anyone using it as a bad player using it as a crutch. So, there's no shame in losing a 1v1 to a PU mesmer. On the other hand, I think PU could be part of not-too-cheesy support build. We're debating working it into some of our scrim comps for when Rev gets back. But yeah, fighting a PU power shatter build feels kinda like fighting a backstab teef these days. Worse, even.

[Slein Jinn]

Blackthorn, on 12 July 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

With this build

Not taking Confounding Suggestions is definitely wrong.  If there's something, and I'm not sure there is, genuinely overpowered--not idiot crybabies whinging on forums overpowered, but actually too strong to be in the game overpowered--about Mesmer right now, it's that trait.  Having an instant cast Stun with no telegraph on a 5s cooldown dramatically increases your capability to set up burst.  Counfounding Suggestions is what pushed Mantra of Distraction into the meta builds in the first place.  

I'm also not sure I'd take Mental Anguish over Power Block, especially as a WvW roaming build.  Mental Anguish is a good trait, and when you're playing a +1 role trying to one-shot targets out of fights, it works very well.  But when you're doing more skirmishing, Power Block is probably stronger.  For one, if you can get someone's heal with Power Block, you just wreck their sustain; really if you can put any of their key skills on a 15s cooldown, it's pretty devastating, especially in 1v1's and 2v2's.  But more than that is just the fact that Power Block gives you more threats; it creates additional ways for you to hurt people, and in skirmishing-style engagements, that generally makes you more dangerous than doubling down on your biggest threat.  

Quote

You can easily afford to trade away deceptive evasion if you know how to  burst properly (not always waiting for three clones to shatter is part of this

Just to elaborate on this a bit, the most common shatter is probably two clones.  Illusionary Berserker -> Mirror Blade -> (traited) Power Lock -> Blink -> Mind Wrack.  You can delay however long seems appropriate between the Berserker and Mirror Blade, but the rest of it needs to be executed quickly and precisely.  Power Lock takes away their ability to dodge out of your burst.  Blinking on top of them ensures that you get maximum damage out of the Mirror Blade and allows you to shatter immediately.  It can often even be worthwhile to shatter just one clone with an opportunistic Mirror Blade + Mind Wrack when the occasion presents itself.  

As a general rule in gaming, you should use your skills at basically every opportunity.  The majority of players instinctively do exactly the opposite, but that's one of the major reasons why good players can shit all over the masses.  The more you wait for the perfect moment to use your skills, the less you'll actually use them.  If you constantly look for more or less any excuse to use your skills, then you'll get them back off cooldown sooner, and you'll get to use them more frequently overall.  When it comes to shattering, if you always wait for that perfectly positioned three-clone shatter, you might actually Mind Wrack once every thirty seconds.  But the skill has a 12s cooldown.  If you Mind Wrack at the first opportunity every time it's off cooldown, you'll end up shattering something like twice as often.

[Blackthorn]

Slein Jinn, on 12 July 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Not taking Confounding Suggestions is definitely wrong.  If there's something, and I'm not sure there is, genuinely overpowered--not idiot crybabies whinging on forums overpowered, but actually too strong to be in the game overpowered--about Mesmer right now, it's that trait.  Having an instant cast Stun with no telegraph on a 5s cooldown dramatically increases your capability to set up burst.  Counfounding Suggestions is what pushed Mantra of Distraction into the meta builds in the first place.  

I'm also not sure I'd take Mental Anguish over Power Block, especially as a WvW roaming build.  Mental Anguish is a good trait, and when you're playing a +1 role trying to one-shot targets out of fights, it works very well.  But when you're doing more skirmishing, Power Block is probably stronger.  For one, if you can get someone's heal with Power Block, you just wreck their sustain; really if you can put any of their key skills on a 15s cooldown, it's pretty devastating, especially in 1v1's and 2v2's.  But more than that is just the fact that Power Block gives you more threats; it creates additional ways for you to hurt people, and in skirmishing-style engagements, that generally makes you more dangerous than doubling down on your biggest threat.

This is Bubbles' build. We don't question Bubbles' build, sir.

As strong as confounding suggestions is, I don't think going for rending shatter is unforgivable. He's basically playing this as a regular shatter build. The added vulnerability helps in dispatching enemies quicker if you've bursted them low, I suppose; perhaps allowing you to finish them off with Cry of Frustration or Mind Stab when you otherwise wouldn't. But, I'm inclined to agree with you - I'd go with  confounding suggestions since I've invested heavily to get three casts out of power lock. The whole domination line is pretty fluid in relation to the other two lines, I think. Furious Interruption as your major master and Power Block as your major grandmaster are definitely options. Shatterlock is a thing, and as you pointed out, it's great for 1's and 2's. As I said, though, the build I linked is supposed to be played as a full-on shatter build. That potential +30% damage on Mind Wrack is too high to pass up for that purpose.

[Biff Rangoon]

Blackthorn, on 12 July 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

I was gonna message you in game the other day because I've noticed you've been playing more mesmer, was curious what you were running. I have mixed feelings on PU. On one hand, the playerbase in general hates it and writes off anyone using it as a bad player using it as a crutch. So, there's no shame in losing a 1v1 to a PU mesmer. On the other hand, I think PU could be part of not-too-cheesy support build. We're debating working it into some of our scrim comps for when Rev gets back. But yeah, fighting a PU power shatter build feels kinda like fighting a backstab teef these days. Worse, even.

I think the playerbase has it right and it is cheese because it totally covers for having no skill. I slapped together a PU condi build the other day in our arena and fought two very competent thieves. I haven't played condi on a mes for over a year and that was in pve at level 30, and I didn't look for guidance anywhere on how to build... I just brought in my mes, bought a cheap staff and scepter on the TP, built and ran into the fight. I totally trashed them despite still having to look at my skillbar and not (at the time) understanding where the burn and bleeds were coming from....

It's cheese in wvw too. Maybe not as bad, except for the shennanigans you can pull involving structures. Still damned easy though. For me, a backstab thief is less of a problem... sure, most of the time a good thief will completely gank someone and several are deadly. But a PU mesmer has amazing group stealth that exceeds a thief's in a fight scenario, they have better ranged damage (thieves are basically on a melee tether), and there are fewer visible markers when entering their stackable stealth.

I think mesmer's a really cool class, but I'm not gonna lie when I say I'm taking advantage of something that I think should be nerfed in order to get my skills up to snuff.

[Silvernis]

Blackthorn, on 12 July 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

On some builds it's completely necessary. Yes, mesmers are a pain to fight because of it, but without a way to break target, the class is unplayable. Ever duel a mesmer that you were in party with? Ez pz. So, I don't think it's a shitty mechanic, but it could be implemented better for sure. That's why I think we should run mostly mesmers for the golem weekend. We should see if we can abuse PU to a point that ANet feels compelled to rethink it.

Admittedly, while i still take issue with some of the mesmer's intrinsic mechanics, I think the bigger problem is stealth in general as implemented in GW2. Maybe I'm a scrub, but I can't help feeling that stealth in this game offers way too much reward vs. little risk, can be accessed too easily and much too frequently by thieves and mesmers, and can be inordinately difficult to counter.

[Biff Rangoon]

Silvernis, on 12 July 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Admittedly, while i still take issue with some of the mesmer's intrinsic mechanics, I think the bigger problem is stealth in general as implemented in GW2. Maybe I'm a scrub, but I can't help feeling that stealth in this game offers way too much reward vs. little risk, can be accessed too easily and much too frequently by thieves and mesmers, and can be inordinately difficult to counter.

No, you're right, Sil. While I think stealth is a cool idea and I agree with Black that it's pretty necessary for many mesmer builds, there's a clear lack of counterplay in too many scenarios.

The problem is how to inject counterplay without completely borking the stealth mechanic. Ever use a stealth trap on a thief that isn't running sword? It's practically a free bag, from my experience. Absent an opportunity to reveal someone with long stealths and you're definitely at a disadvantage in a fight.

At least with thieves there's a relatively short timer on most stealths, you know they have to get close damage you, and you'll see an indication of where they are if they choose to extend their stealth. So if you have a lot of aoe, start dropping them at your feet when they stealth and put up a little defense after a couple of seconds and it'll help a bit.

[Silvernis]

Biff Rangoon, on 12 July 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

No, you're right, Sil. While I think stealth is a cool idea and I agree with Black that it's pretty necessary for many mesmer builds, there's a clear lack of counterplay in too many scenarios.

The problem is how to inject counterplay without completely borking the stealth mechanic. Ever use a stealth trap on a thief that isn't running sword? It's practically a free bag, from my experience. Absent an opportunity to reveal someone with long stealths and you're definitely at a disadvantage in a fight.

At least with thieves there's a relatively short timer on most stealths and you know they have to get close. So if you have a lot of aoe, start dropping them at your feet when they stealth and put up a little defense after a couple of seconds and it'll help a bit.

I don't know if the mechanic itself can be fixed—or indeed, if it's even broken—but I do think access to and duration of stealth could be toned down or otherwise tweaked to make it less of an obnoxious PITA to deal with. Stealth should be for "oh shit" moments when you really need to buy some breathing room, or for when you really need to reposition. It shouldn't be a cheap method to poop crazy damage on an opponent who can't really do much to stop you. (Also: staff mesmers. I want to murder them all.)

Thieves don't bother me as much as they used to. That's not to say I don't still get ganked by them, but now that I've gotten a better feel for their limits (like you said, you know they have to get close), I stand a good chance of at least fending them off until they run away. Still working on actually dropping them. Their stealth is annoying, especially when combined with their spastic mobility, but it ultimately feels less dangerous than mesmer stealth.

[Slein Jinn]

Learn to play Thief/Mesmer, and in the process, you'll learn how to play against them.  I can't really cover "how to fight Thieves and Mesmers" in a forum post, but there's nothing wrong with the Stealth mechanic, and there is plenty you can do to play against the classes that rely on it.  You mostly just need to have a sense of what they're trying to do while they're in Stealth.

[Liric]

Stealth is dumb in this game. Terrible implementation, total crutch and excuse to call a no-risk mechanic a "style". Untalented players gravitate towards this. :x

I do like /laughing at invisible people, knowing they're still totally burning down from conditions though. Watching them die is satisfying, mwahaha.

(speaking from a WvW perspective, not PvP)

[Biff Rangoon]

It'd be more reasonable if the stackability of mesmer stealths was removed. Frankly, removing stackability for all stealth (except for Shadow Refuge from a single source, maybe) would help counter play a lot.

I personally think short stealths is an interesting mechanic that adds a nice dimension to combat. And I say that as someone who rarely has stealth and is always fighting people who do.

[Sanji]

Seeing to many full roaming grps of mesmer + thieves on cd lately...one is bad enough alone now...Silv and I had to face 2-3 mesmers + thief the other night was just horrendous trying to figure out which is which...ever since the updates, am having a harder time identifying the clones for the real peps and I used to be fine with them until recently.

Anyways...

[Silvernis]

Sanji, on 15 July 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Seeing to many full roaming grps of mesmer + thieves on cd lately...one is bad enough alone now...Silv and I had to face 2-3 mesmers + thief the other night was just horrendous trying to figure out which is which...ever since the updates, am having a harder time identifying the clones for the real peps and I used to be fine with them until recently.

Anyways...

I think the hard part is actually targeting the correct mesmer. Even if you know which one it is—which is easy enough to figure out—tabbing or clicking them in the midst of the illusion spam can be damn near impossible. And that's to say nothing of all the stupid stealth.

[Liric]

I feel like identifying them is easy - either they appear where a player should or they have really distinct movement patterns.

100% agree on short term vs. stacking stealth though. I feel like that would help a lot if they refuse to rework the mechanic. Nobody should be able to be invisible for half a minute or more at a time AND be able to do obscene burst damage out of that stealth.

[Blackthorn]

So, been running around with this build for a few days. Took a bit of getting used to working the extra keystroke or two into the burst, but Confounding Suggestions makes it pretty easy to blow up soft targets (and then some). Also, I now realize that between Mirror Blade (3 stacks of vuln. to the enemy and 3 stacks of might to you per bounce), Power Lock (5 stacks of vuln.), and Mantra Strength (plus 4% damage per stack), you're doing quite a bit of extra damage, so it would seem Rending Shatter is kinda pointless if you're going with Harmonious Mantras.

That being said, I wonder if GS + sword/torch is really the best weapon set for this build. For example, replacing the torch with another sword gives an extra clone and potential stun, and the Phantasmal Swordsman is superior to the Phantasmal Mage for power builds. Staff also has another potential stun and kites a bit better than sword/torch. Sword/sword and staff might be ideal to get the most out of Confounding Suggestions, but I might as well go full lock-down at that point ...

[Silvernis]

Blackthorn, on 17 July 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

So, been running around with this build for a few days. Took a bit of getting used to working the extra keystroke or two into the burst, but Confounding Suggestions makes it pretty easy to blow up soft targets (and then some). Also, I now realize that between Mirror Blade (3 stacks of vuln. to the enemy and 3 stacks of might to you per bounce), Power Lock (5 stacks of vuln.), and Mantra Strength (plus 4% damage per stack), you're doing quite a bit of extra damage, so it would seem Rending Shatter is kinda pointless if you're going with Harmonious Mantras.

That being said, I wonder if GS + sword/torch is really the best weapon set for this build. For example, replacing the torch with another sword gives an extra clone and potential stun, and the Phantasmal Swordsman is superior to the Phantasmal Mage for power builds. Staff also has another potential stun and kites a bit better than sword/torch. Sword/sword and staff might be ideal to get the most out of Confounding Suggestions, but I might as well go full lock-down at that point ...

I don't claim to be any good at mes, but I personally like GS + sword/sword. The extra block and/or stun can be very useful, especially since I'm (still) running a full mantra build centered around interrupts.

[Liric]

But without torch you lose some stealth cheese.

[Slein Jinn]

Blackthorn, on 17 July 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

So, been running around with this build for a few days. Took a bit of getting used to working the extra keystroke or two into the burst, but Confounding Suggestions makes it pretty easy to blow up soft targets (and then some). Also, I now realize that between Mirror Blade (3 stacks of vuln. to the enemy and 3 stacks of might to you per bounce), Power Lock (5 stacks of vuln.), and Mantra Strength (plus 4% damage per stack), you're doing quite a bit of extra damage, so it would seem Rending Shatter is kinda pointless if you're going with Harmonious Mantras.

That being said, I wonder if GS + sword/torch is really the best weapon set for this build. For example, replacing the torch with another sword gives an extra clone and potential stun, and the Phantasmal Swordsman is superior to the Phantasmal Mage for power builds. Staff also has another potential stun and kites a bit better than sword/torch. Sword/sword and staff might be ideal to get the most out of Confounding Suggestions, but I might as well go full lock-down at that point ...

It really depends on the matchup.  You definitely don't need Sword/Torch as much with Inspiration as you do with Chaos, but it's still a very strong choice, and it's the best choice for fighting Thieves--still your biggest counter, although not as severe as pre-patch.  Sword/Torch should also generally be the better choice against things like Power Rangers, which are similarly prevalent and can also be a handful, though I wouldn't call them a counter.  Staff, on the other hand, is better at fighting more bruiser-type builds like most types of Ele, Engi, or Warrior.  

Personally, I default to Sword/Torch unless I know I'm facing something that favours Staff, because I feel like the advantage of the Sword/Torch when Sword/Torch is favoured has a bigger impact on the outcome of a fight than the advantage of Staff when Staff is favoured.  I would never run offhand Sword over Torch or Staff, or probably even Pistol (which I also wouldn't run).

P.S. You can argue both sides of Power Block vs. Mental Anguish with Sword/Torch, but you almost have to take Power Block with Staff.

[matthen]

I run GS/Staff with two mantras (heal+distraction). I have been running mantras for 1.5 years. I finally broke down and switched to a post-patch Dom/Duel/Inspiration build, although I haven't put much time in on it yet.

I have always found staff to be extremely useful for charging mantas as Staff 2 and 4 can be used without interrupting the charge... and you can stand in Staff 5 while charging, as well.

I used to run sword/sword a lot. It is definitely good for 1v1, and the counterattack on the block can wreck a thief (at least it used to... block-riposte, dodge, mind wrack could down one they wasn't at full health). However, in larger fights, sword/sword always seemed too easy to focus. You have to be really good with your sword blinks and blurred frenzy to pull it off... and if your always using BF for defense, you are missing out on significant burst.

I guess I would say try GS/Staff. You don't have the same lockdown as sword builds, and that takes some getting used to. However, having a stun on the daze mantra makes it easier.

All that said, I generally favor staff simply because I find it to be one of the most fun weapons in the game... so I am always trying to find an excuse to use it.

[Grav]

Two nights ago I won my first ever 1v1 against a thief in PvP without Moaing them (since it was on CD).  Thanks, blind-on-shatter trait. \o/

matthen, on 17 July 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

I have always found staff to be extremely useful for charging mantas as Staff 2 and 4 can be used without interrupting the charge... and you can stand in Staff 5 while charging, as well.

I often find myself using Torch 4 in a similar way, for the cover while recharging a mantra.